Graphic photos published to a self-proclaimed USDA Wildlife Services employee’s Facebook page and Twitter account were recently brought to light by wildlife activists. Some of the photos, placed in a Facebook album called “work” and some from a public Twitter account, depict the employee’s dogs attacking defenseless coyotes, raccoons, and bobcats caught in a leg-hold traps. Most of the photos have been removed but many can be seen here, here, and here.
The employee, Jamie P. Oslon, is employed as a Biological Science Technician and is based in Douglas, Wyoming. He also appears to be an administrator of the coyotehunter.net website and organizer of coyote tournaments in the region.
The photos have prompted outrage among animal rights and wildlife advocates who have contacted the agency and asked for an investigation into the incidents shown in the photographs.
The Wildlife News has been informed that a recent coyote hunting tournament that was planned by Olson in Billings, Montana has been cancelled due to ‘lack of interest due to the election’. However, there are others in the near future.
USDA Wildlife Services, not to be confused with US Fish and Wildlife Service, is an agency created to protect the interests of agriculture. One of their largest programs is their predator control program which involves aerial gunning and trapping and killing of all kinds of predators. The Wildlife News has written extensively about the agency in the past and we have questioned the whole rationale for this program.
Many recent publications have questioned the conventional wisdom of predator control programs, particularly coyote killing. It is becoming more and more apparent that the program’s effects are counterproductive and cause coyote populations to increase and end up causing more conflict than it solves. One just has to look at the wide-scale expansion of the coyote population to see that the program isn’t having the desired effect.
Tom Knudsen, the Sacremento Bee reporter who wrote an excellent series of articles earlier this year about USDA Wildlife Services, has published this story about the photos: U.S. wildlife worker’s online photos of animal abuse stir outrage – Environment – The Sacramento Bee.
UPDATE 11/2/2012: Wyoming coyote trapper defends graphic photos MATTHEW FRANK, Missoula Independent
Comments
True, manly men!
I think hunters, non-hunters, pro-wolfers, anti-wolfers, what ever your thoughts in those regards may be, can line up together and call this barbaric and inhumane. On top of that you can add “stupid” for posting the damn photos.
Agreed on all accounts. And I would add that it also illustrates how this type of behavior can become “normalized” within small groups of like-minded people.
mikepost,
Well said. If what is stated here is true, we can hope he falls hard, and as a result, an example for no tolerance for this stuff is set. What an idiot!
You would think that killing wild animals as work would make someone sick of doing that not more inclined to go out and create derbies and torture and kill on his own time. This is not a person that should be allowed to hunt – ever again!
If anybody has knowledge of the area the pics were taken in and some photo recon experience, the approximate photo date could be fairly easily figured out (dog ages, truck year, seasonal foliage, etc.). Shame, but ‘posers’ gotta pose.
Somehow I get the sense that an in-house investigation is like asking al quaida to investigate the taliban… or Mittens investigating the 2008 economic debacle. This is about the umpteenth time that animal abuse has been documented by employees of this federal agency. It’s time for a more comprehensive, outside the agency, investigation on the order of the House Ethics Committee and then some.
Salle the Wildearth Guardians are asking for an investigation….If you like I’ll forward the letter to you or Ralph. I’m not sure its on the site, it came to me through wccl
The pics are clear. The dogs are tormenting the trapped coyotes. How someone gets paid to slaughter wildlife and then torment the wildlife before he kills it is beyond me. This is disgusting behavior. This kind of behavior by this trapper is immoral on so many levels.
This is some sick, sick shit. I saw a lot of poor behavior by hunters and trappers during my 40 days in the northern rockies.
I reported most of it, got a bunch of people busted and got myself into some scrapes.
These people are goons.
This guy fits the FBI profile of a serial killer. Serial killers often start out as animal abusers and then move on to killing humans.
This psychopath no longer gets a thrill out of just killing animals, he has to make it more gruesome to get his kicks from the coyotes death.
He probably had his hand in his pants, while his dogs killed the coyote.
Law enforcement officials investigating missing kids and females should check to see if this creep has been in the area when they disappeared. He travels all over the country promoting coyote killing contests.
Sounds good “Hotch” give me a break Larry, you are a serial photographer…
I agree, this is the behavior of a sociopath.
Where did you see poor behavior by trappers in your travels. I can not remember the last time I saw a trapper in Montana and I live here.
By the way I wanted you to stop and have a beer at the brew pub.
Hi elk –
I came across several trap sites, and had a “chat” after staking out a site and waiting for the trapper to return. That’s how you find them.
I would have loved to had a beer at the Brewery, but got invited to a party by a girl while perusing Hastings, and basically lost track of all other possibilities at that point, as you can understand.
Most people in Montana are really cool, and I do care for them. But they are plagued by misinformation concerning wolves, even the best of those people. It’s the same thing in Chicago. Many don’t realize how screwed up the politics are. I mean, we have two governors IN JAIl. The problem here, like there, is that you can’t see, then fix the crazy when you are in the middle of it.
By the way, moving to Missoula in March.
Gary Strader, a former Wildlife Services trapper in Nevada, was not surprised to learn about the controversial photos. “That is very common,” Strader wrote in an email. “It always was and always will be controversial. It has never been addressed by the higher-ups. They know it happens on a regular basis.”
You have to wonder how many more guys like Olsen work for wildlife services. What exactly is the purpose of a wildlife services agent taking a picture with their kills while smiling? The pictures clearly shows this mans dogs harassing and tormenting the trapped coyotes. I’m glad this man was caught.
From Carter N,
I KNOW that many Wildlife Services trappers have Airedales, curs and and other “breeds” of dogs for denning coyotes and allow them to “warm up” on trapped coyotes. Their “bragging photos” get them in trouble……
Mike
Missoula is your kind of town.
Rancher Bob, I am the complete opposite of Mike but Missoula is my kind of town. Great food, great bars, I love the Stockman’s and the Top Hat, and petty women.
I remember those days. Tomorrow is the day we set the clock’s back at 2:00 am. When I was in college instead of the bar closing at 2:00 am, the clock at 2:00 am was set back to 1: am and we could drink for another hour. Today, I am in bed at 10:00 O’Clock and two beers is one to many and the petty women, I could be there grandpa. What time does and did to a once find young man.
Elk
I was born in Missoula and spend time there now, it’s that kind of town where people of all walks live, but it’s probably the closest fit for Mike, for Montana. They do like it weird.
Have drank a few at the Stockman from time to time. Enjoy the memories.
Elk –
You’re probably not much older than me. I agree with you about Missoula. Wonderful town with lots of pretty women and neat bars. I did visit the Top Hat, too.
Rancher Bob –
I wouldn’t consider people who prioritize arts and healthful activities over yard work and televised sports “weird”. In fact, I’d consider it the opposite.
not wildlife story but maybe one all of you bickering aging older men can laugh about, instead of shouting creepy things about one another. My husband and I have a mutual friend of many years who has always loved to go out, hang at the bars, drink too much and get too crazy. He was also of the mind for a long time that younger women were the only women he was interested in. My Dad used to tell him, one day you’ll be older and they’ll look at you like a degenerate My friend, JIm, thought it would never happen. So he told us recently, that he was at a coffee place in Florida, thinking that he was being suave and catching a pretty waitresses eye. He was flirting and thought she was flirting back, he caught her attention and thought he was onto something. She started walking over with a big smile on her face and Jim started to pull out a piece of paper to write down her number. She looks at him and winks and says “looking for the senior coffee”!
Mike
You may not see this but “keeping it weird in Missoula” is a inside joke that only locals understand. Your also going to find out camping in Montana doesn’t involve having a car parked next to your tent.
You are a bitter old man, Rancher Bob.
Mike
Just trying to help you understand a few things your going to learn, and I’m sure not old or bitter, just don’t think you’ll like living in Montana. Your lucky I’m in a good mood did my hike up the mountain today could have harvested either of two bucks or either of two bull elk over 6 points just wasn’t ready for the extra work, just a good day for a hike.
Rancher Bob,
Looking for the silver lining in the cloud today. Safe to assume the wolves have not killed all the elk. 🙂
Rancher Bob –
I’ll love living in Montana. I already see more of the back country than most of the locals, and I spend serious time documenting it for personal reasons, and for research purposes.
I don’t need to “learn” anything except to avoid rednecks. The people of Montana have been very kind to me, wolf misinformation or not.
If I were you, I’d worry less about handing out advice and spend more time reading.
lol@Louise. Funny story.
I’m sure I’ll be that guy one day. Oh well. nothing wrong with an old buck wandering the woods.
Immer
It was a silver lining day all day for me, wolves killing all the elk is as likely to happen as Montana killing all it’s wolves.
On another note are you ready for another diet change? Read the other day that Idaho’s number 1 cash agriculture product is now dairy, include cheese with the potato boycott.:)
++Just trying to help you understand a few things your going to learn++
You’d be kicked out of the classroom for that sentence alone, Rancher Bob.
Rancher Bob,
If the dairy industry depended on my annual dairy intake, the afore said industry would be much reduced from it’s present size.
“I came across several trap sites”
What kind of trap sites did you “come across”? Leghold traps?
Jeez that’s going to be a real downer for Montana! They will have their own PETA advocate amongst them!
So Craig,
You and SB have an easier time attacking Mike than you do acknowledging that this sick SOB tortures trapped animals. And we all can safely assume that this asshole has one this repeatedly. He just happened to be stupid enough to post the photos this time.
Jeff,
I have acknowledged this behavior many times in the past, have never endorsed and never will jerk off.
Now as to Mike, he gets everything he asks for and will continue to do so as long as his closed mind continues to be the way he is.
SB –
Nothing closed about my mind. Remember, I was a hunter at one point. Like many of my friends (two from Kalispell), I advanced from killing and maiming animals with poisonous lead bullets to photography.
Wildlife services must know what their employees are up to. I’ve seen more pics from this trapper Olsen. There is a picture of him with a shovel and dead coyote pups. Wildlife services have no compassion for the animals that they slaughter.
Mike,
Well what the hell, guess I am good to go, as I use arrows with no lead in them, so see we are closer to each other than we ever imagined! LOL
Well Mike, if you are going to move to Montana, it might as well be Missoula, anywhere else, might not turn out good for someone like you! That must have been a really good date, did you find out where she was from?
Are you defending or ignoring the actions of the sick SOB who derives pleasure from torturing trapped animals?
Jeff, who are you addressing your message to? With this new format, I can’t which message goes with what post.
I am not defending this individual, in fact on this very blog, I have condemned coyote hunting many times and have condemned these coyote contests..
lol@the anywhere else line.
Missoula native, BTW.
Well Mike, Missoula is our most liberal city in the state, come on up and live in the Kalispell area for a while… I don’t think you would enjoy it.
I have friends in Kalispell, so no problem with that. They know my politics, too.
@Mike – So how did you find the trap sites? And what kind of traps?
Mike,
I have this vision of you after your move to MT, in a small town bar some Saturday night, maybe three beers under your belt, “educating” the locals. You get the attention, but not the ear, of some big testosterone poisoned cowboy, also beer primed, as you are talking to his girl about all this wolf stuff. Then, what’s next?
Consider these words: It is sometimes better to be silent and thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt….especially when you are new to town. LOL
This man should lose his job and be arrested for animal cruelty. I doubt this will happen though. I’m glad this sadist was exposed to the public. I think most of us knew what kind of people work for “wildlife services”.
“I think most of us knew what kind of people work for “wildlife services”.
I work with a bunch of very fine people from Wildlife Services, Jon, who would be appalled and outraged at this kind of behavior. And they would agree that this douchbag should be fired and prosecuted. How many WS agents do you know?
jon
Didn’t Carter Neimeyer once work for WS.
Please let us know of your heroic adventures and proof how you caught all the villans! You are the super hero everyone has been waiting for! Hunters must fear you and your vast knowledge of undermining all the bad deeds that everyone of them commits! It’s great to have a person like you watching out for all Wildlife and taking care of everything! All Wildlife is safe on your watch Superfreak!
That was for Mike, this new system doesn’t put things where they should be.
The system or your mind?
trying to read through this thread, Craig do you have to be so hateful? Its not warranted and really mean spirited. This is great site where everyone has a lot to learn from one another. Personal attacks are just that personal, not productive
Nothing is more despicable than respect based on fear.
Albert Camus
C’est que pris a l’etranger Nancy? Son depuis longtemps J’ai lu Camus.
His defense of these actions is not convincing. Does he also torture the deer that he hunts?
I am glad to hear that people are more interested in the election than in a coyote shooting contest.
I worked for Wildlife Services for 26 years but never witnessed anyone in Wildlife Services turn their dogs loose on a trapped coyote. On the other hand, I know that trappers have told stories of doing what Mr Olson has documented with his photos and I know that Wildlife Services trappers have Airedales and other cur dogs that they routinely take with them for call shooting coyotes and denning pups. Some Wildlife Services trappers currently breed and sell such dogs to others in their ranks. I know many good people who work for Wildlife Services but I am not the least bit surprised that several of their employees do engage the same behavior as Mr Olson and, perhaps, this will be a lesson for the others to stop.
When I was seventeen, my father brought home an Airedale hound that someone had given to him. In the next few weeks this dog killed all of our cats, all of my mother’s laying hens and continually harassed the rest of our livestock. As the designated family shooter, it became my job to shoot the Airedale. It is the only dog that I have ever killed, but I didn’t loose any sleep over killing it. If all Airedales are like the one my father brought home, they should all be shot.
Have to let Airedale owners speak for themselves. Friends in Colorado adopted two. The first was a pretty mellow dog, the second was nuts.
Airedale’s are no different than any other dog, it comes down to the owner and how they train them or abuse the, I have heard comments like this about PitBulls as well, “They should all be killed”
That said, I know several people that have Pits and they are just fine because they have been raised correctly. Look to the owners, or the previous owners when you have problems with a dog, not the breed!
OK Savebears this is two things we agree on!
dogs are trained by humans, if they have been bred for specific activities they will be prone to undertake that job. Like labs who will chase balls or swim forever, or shepherds, akitas, huskies that have incredible prey drives. I don’t know much about airedale’s but its the owner’s responsibilty to ensure the animal is not harming wildlife. Its despicable behavior to allow an animal to rip apart another. This party should have his hunting license revoked, his duties and job suspended, and should also not be allowed to have dogs. Responsible dog owners don’t do this sort of thing.
Savebears,
Don’t know if your comment was in reply to mine, Larry’s, or in general. In reply to yours, yes and no. One can train and condition a dog to a point in terms of of trust and predictability. They will imprint to a certain degree, but they also have, as do we, distinct personality attributes, idiosyncrasies, both breeds and individuals, that makes each individual dog a tad different from any other individual dog. My take is it begins to develop inutero. The sooner a pup can be properly socialized, the better for that particular dog in the society in which we live.
Not to say one can’t get a wonderful rescue dog, but one can also get a pup that has a wire lose, and have a handful if they are not willing to spend the effort and an extraordinary amount of time and effort with it.
That said, different “breeds” are better suited to different lifestyles and living arrangements. My opinion, based on the dogs I have had the pleasure to share a great chunk of life, and the observations I have made of friends and their dogs.
Know someone who paid close to $300 for an Airdale/Aussie mix for ranch work.
And here’s an interesting combo:
http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=22614.0;wap2
Someone obvioulsy doing their part to help out with the feral pig/coyote populations in Texas.
Everytime I read about people raising/using dogs to run down wildlife – the word moron comes to mind 🙂
Comment for moderators:
This new format is incredibly confusing.
I agree, very difficult to follow a conversation
I agree as well. Totally lost.
I agree.
Ditto
ditto the ditto, and my cutesie Coyote icon went away even after I visited Gravatar and reinstated it.
Not all progress…is.
Make that a ditto cubed.
It is part of the WordPress software that I just updated. There is no way to change it. Note the lines to the left of the comments. They indicate how many levels of “nesting” there are.
The nice thing is that it looks much better on a mobile phone.
Ken,
Thanks for addressing the posting format issue. Too bad the WordPress folks didn’t leave the color shading that once accompanied the nesting lines (which are very faint on my computer screen). Any chance of an email to them to say their software update may not necessarily be an “improvement” of their product/service?
Okay, I think I fixed it. There seems to be a new plugin that came with the update or one that was installed accidentally was activated when it hadn’t been before.
Gotta figure out some other issues though.
Idaho voters, I hope you remember this post and these pictures when you vote Tuesday. There’s a proposed constitutional amendment — authored, I suspect by ALEC — on the ballot that “guarantees the right to hunt fish and trap”
There is a lot of difference between a government sponsored employee whos job is to kill what is considered pests and the normal hunter that goes out and puts food in the freezer, this guy is paid to kill, the hunter pays to kill. In Montana, we have seen no increase in this type of behavior because we have a Constitutional right to hunt!
I have to also express concern over someone posting under the alias of “alf” in the wildlife world, alf stands for “Animal Liberation Front” Which is considered a homegrowned terriorist organization, Here in the United States!
That’s not what “alf” stands for in this context. Enough with the hyperbole on that. I know the person.
Ken,
You may know this person, but the rest of us do not, so I don’t think you jumping saying enough with the hyperbole is appropriate, I have had experience in the past with this group, which included threats to my life, there threats are the reason I pack when working in the woods.
Sb,
really? This big a deal over 3 letters? Come on, man. Is this the same slanted thinking that shoots snakes because they are scary too? (most in the country would have no clue what alf is…other than an alien from an eighties TV show)
It’s short for Alferd, not their real name but it has nothing to do with ALF. You sound paranoid.
Ken,
Really? paranoid, I would think in the capacity you work, you would understand, but I guess you have never had your life threatened as well as have someone show up in your driveway two days latter at midnight, of course the person that made the call is now serving time in the Montana State Prison as he was convicted of his threatning actions. I am not paranoid, but I am aware.
Just wait, one of these days, working with the group you, something will happen, that will make you very uncomfortable, I pray not, but the radicals don’t think the way we do.
Uh, yeah, I have had weird things happen because of my position, but just because someone posts under a name that I don’t understand doesn’t mean that I freak out.
Ken,
I didn’t freak out and I am glad you were able to explain that it was simply a misunderstanding. But after what happened to me, I am very aware, I live remote and have a lot of strange people come around.
I am glad to know, it is simply another individual expressing his opinion on these issues.
Save Bars,
That North Fork conspiracy paranoia is getting to you again 😉
Mike,
No it is not.
MarkL,
Every single person that lives in a state that has had a ALF terrorist attack knows who they are, currently, they have destroyed targets in 29 states, the use the exact same tactics that other terrorist organizations use. It is fortunate that they have not killed anyone as of yet. To those not involved, it is silly, to us that have had threats or been involved in the damage they have caused, it is a real threat.
I was mistaken and Ken noted he knows this individual, when your involved in the wildlife business, those three letters can and do bring a chill to you.
“Just wait, one of these days, working with the group you, something will happen, that will make you very uncomfortable, I pray not, but the radicals don’t think the way we do”
The definition of domestic terrorism is broad enough to encompass the activities of several prominent activist campaigns and organizations. Greenpeace, Operation Rescue, Vieques Island and WTO protesters and the Environmental Liberation Front have all recently engaged in activities that could subject them to being investigated as engaging in domestic terrorism.
And then a closer look brings out all sorts of radicals:
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-domestic-terrorism
Well Nancy,
Thanks for that link, it still does not change the fact, My life was threatened, it still does not change the fact that law enforcement investigated and the person was tracked down and is serving a sentence in the Montana State Prison!
Just to add, I have had law enforcement at my home today, we ended up with another damn hole in the wall from people not paying attention to what they are shooting at!!!!
Savebears
while you may be a “responsible” hunter in all the ways that have been debated here endlessly, there is a lot of evidence that some very many twisted individuals call themselves hunters and avail themselves of the priveledge to hunt through the very liberal laws that protect hunters and leave wildlife open to all kinds of abuse, and torture that would never be acceptable for other domesticated animals or people. Why does a “hunting” right need to be confirmed as a constitutional right? Doing so will make it harder to reform rules or regulations that might be directed to protect wildlife later. I would think people like yourselves would be the most outraged at some of these abuses and before wanting to see a right to hunt and kill become entrenched as a constitutional amendment you’d want to see some guidelines or laws established that call for a code of ethics or some anti cruelty laws in place to define how “real” hunters expect others to act if they want the right to hunt. Who could object to outlawing predator derbies? to allowing hounding, to the kind of blood lust killing we are seeing everywhere on the internet. A lot of people including myself would not object to hunting for food if it were done ethically, responsibly and if we had wildlife cruelty laws in place. and I’d like to see some hunters screaming about these disgusting sites and the people that call themselves hunters when they are really just wildlife serial killers.
Louise,
The right to hunt, does not equate the right to kill, that is something that you and many others do not seem to understand, just because I have the right to go out, during a legal hunting season and hunt……does not mean I have the right to go out at anytime and kill anything I want. I sill have to be legally licensed, I still have to follow the rules, I still have to follow a code of ethics..
The reason you are seeing this happening is because so many of the animal activists groups have pushed so hard, they disrupt legal hunts, they harrass and bully those engaged in a legal activity..
I condemn people such as highlighted in this thread, I will never condemn a legal hunter, I turn in quite a few hunters every year, due to what I consider unethical conduct while in the field.
Without the radical groups, there would be no reason to pass constitutional rights to hunt or laws that state it is unlawful to disrupt a legal hunt.
Louise,
Many can tell you, that I have on numerous times condemned the preadator derbies, I don’t hunt coyotes and I don’t hunt wolves, I hunt what I eat and I eat what I kill.
I acknowledged in my earlier post that anti hunters might be a lot less prone to criticism of the hunting community if we were not seeing such abuses and an ingrained desire to see hunting expanded and the hunting community ignoring the worst of their community.
and I know you condemn this
Savebears I’m glad your telling it like it is for hunters!
If I am ever hurassed by an animal activist or anyone when I am participating in a legal hunt, the hunt harassment law will be used to the fullest.
I to will turn others in for game violations and have.
well we certainly disagree here. I think you missed what I was saying. Can you really be saying that wildlife abuse occurs because environmentalists disrupt hunts?
“The right to hunt, does not equate the right to kill, that is something that you and many others do not seem to understand, just because I have the right to go out, during a legal hunting season and hunt……does not mean I have the right to go out at anytime and kill anything I want.”
You made my argument for me. Thats what I’m bitching about, where are the laws that prevent what you just described. why then are coyote and predators derbies allowed, why can Bransford lay down 90 – 100 traps and snares to try and capture the rest of the black wolf family? Because they can and do, there is nothing illegal. Immoral yes illegal no.
Louise if you do not like the laws change them. People on this forum bitch about how wildlife is being treated in the Northern Rockies. What about Texas? Ninty eight percent of Texas is private land. There are many, many ranches that have a reverse predator derby, the hunter pays for each coyote or bobcat kill and each hunter can kill one mountain lion per day. I never have ever heard anyone complaining about Texas. Louise take your energies to Texas and sese where it will get you. No where.
Louise, if you feel the law needs to be changed, then damn well do it!
I know you work hard for what you believe in, but it is obvious, you are not working hard enough!
Although this is a not a situation covered by the trapping, hunting, fishing proposed Idaho constitutional amendment, is there anyone who doesn’t think these photos hurt its chances of passing?
Not really, because anyone who hunts, fishes, and unfortunately, traps, will vote for it.
Ralph the actions of a Wildlife service employee in Wyoming, in my opinion will have very little impact in Idaho, the majority of the people outside of these blogs have no knowlege of this even happening. This situation created a blip on Facebook, but not much of a blip..
Despite those of us that follow these blogs, we are small minority, most people just don’t care..
No. This behavior is chuckled at by most of the community. It won’t have any effect.
Like many, many breeds, Airedales have been selected for particular characteristics. They’re nimble, courageous, and fairly smart (mid-range on dog intelligence rankings). They’re considered terriers, and terriers have had a lot of the “submit” bred out of them: they won’t quit, and may fight to the death. Hurting them just makes them fight back harder. My friend’s six pound Yorkie ended up in surgery because it picked a fight with a 100# Swiss Mountain dog.
As with many, many breeds, they really don’t fit with most people’s concept of ideal pets. I increasingly believe that most dogs in general aren’t what most people are looking for in a pet — most dogs have too much energy and drive and require more consistency than most Americans are prepared to deal with. I think what most Americans want in a “dog” is really some pathetic low energy creature like the pug or the French bulldog, both of which have breathing problems due to their “cute” compressed faces (brachycephalic is the technical term).
Two airedale cross stockdogs I know are smart, funny, and athletic. They also cannot keep themselves from biting people, other dogs, whatever. Send them into the brush after cattle, though, and they’re gonna bring those cattle out for you (of course, my far better behaved kelpie-border collie will fetch cattle up for me too, and he’s far easier to live with).
Anyway, the Airedales and curs and Jack Russells and other dogs are the way we made them. They were bred to do certain jobs, and they’ll express that breeding one way or another.
It is deeply, deeply warped to let them express that on a mostly defenseless animal like that trapped coyote.
“Anyway, the Airedales and curs and Jack Russells and other dogs are the way we made them. They were bred to do certain jobs, and they’ll express that breeding one way or another.
It is deeply, deeply warped to let them express that on a mostly defenseless animal like that trapped coyote”
Yep.
perfect response and I especially agree that most people are not equipped to own dogs. Dogs were bred to have jobs. If you are not willing to walk, hike or run them several times a day, you are doing an injustice to the dog and its going to get into trouble. They need socialization, attention, love and excecrise.
“…most dogs have too much energy and drive and require more consistency than most Americans are prepared to deal with.”
Well said, SAP. Generally speaking, working and herding breeds in particular are not “made” for your average owner.
Also agree with Immer’s comments (above). How a dog behaves is a function of both its training and genetics.
I think there is truth to what is said about good owners making good dogs,. On the other hand one cannot ignore the breed and the qualities that have been amplified over time. Late this summer we went on a backpacking trip, and needed to leave our 4 year old Golden retriever with a dog sitter for a week, because our regular friend who cares for him could not.
My wife suggested we do an “interview” with the sitter and check out their operation. The dogs have supervised play time, including 4-6 dogs in a common play area for part of the day. There was a young pitbull, about 2 years old, in the area, playing with a couple shelties and another golden – all animals were neutered, and it seemed everybody was doing fine. I asked if everything was good with the pit bull. Sitter says, “Oh yeah, he has been here before and we have had no problems.” OK, so off goes my golden into the mix, tail flagging high and wagging. Not too sure what happened next because it was so quick. Immediately, I am trying to pull this very strong and muscular, large jawed, pitbull off my golden, as large teeth flash less than a foot away from my face and next to my hands, as the sitter and my wife try to get the golden away from the area.
Now, to be honest, I don’t know who started this, or what set things off. But the moral of the story is, the consequences of having a particular breed of dog, which can do extreme damage in a heartbeat is a risk I never again want to endure! I have also known other pitbulls to go from “sweet” to “fight” in less than two seconds, and I don’t care how well they have been cared for by good owners. And, of course, we know what they were bred for, by the name. They are a dangerous breed, and that is why some cities/counties have outlawed ownership of them, or charge a much higher license fee to own one (and importantly neutering required to reduce aggression).
Post script to story: While we were trying to sort all this out, including why the sitter didn’t have a vinegar spray bottle or a hose to help break up fights, the pitbull, sat in a kennel near the common area, whining and wagging its tail wanting to get back with the rest of the gang, as if nothing had happened. My dog, on the other hand, was quivering, looking for the pitbull over his shoulder and headed for the exit gate (he’s a wussie dog, anyway, and that’s why we have him – with somebody breaking into our house it would be quite a different story).
Don’t know what it is with some dogs. Territorial, friendship caste, adult presence, but if you can tune into your dog’s body language, it becomes a bit more apparent when/if they might go “off”. I Do NOT Condone dog fighting, but just like five year olds, every once in a while, they just get into it. And it is usually two dogs strange to each other, and it just flashes. In your case WM, the pitbull was the one that “flashed”. Even with a GS, when visiting relatives in the land of pit bulls I give them a wide birth. I guess pit bulls can be mellow/gentle dogs, but the breeding and the owners are the important variable between a pleasant encounter and becoming a statistic with that breed.
That said, one home I owned, the insurance agent asked if I had a dog. And when I replied a German Shepherd, there was hesitation on the part of the agent about homeowners insurance without a rider.
FYI:
http://notesfromthefunnyfarm.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/which-dog-breed-is-most-likely-to-bite-you-might-be-surprised-at-the-answer/
JB,
At one time Golden Retrievers were on this list, when a dog needs to be put down, because aggressive behavior, don’t blame the dog, blame the human!
SB:
Generally speaking, I do! But I have also seen dogs of the same breed with the same order exhibit wildly divergent behavior. You can’t lay all of a dog’s behavior at the hands of an owner. Like all intelligent animals their behavior is a function of both their genes and their environment.
WM – dog fights are tough to figure out. I had a foster dog for a year – she’s a cowdog out of some high-drive working lines, and she would put a beating on a lot of dogs she encountered, even though she topped out at 38#. I wasn’t quite sure what to do with her, other than keep her away from other dogs.
One thing was apparent — when a fight was shaping up or underway, rushing to intervene didn’t do any good. Just made her fight harder. I’ve read different theories on that, but the most compelling is that your dog thinks you’re coming to her aid in the fight, so it’s time to press the attack.
The solution — if both owners can abide it — is to let them have their scrap if they must, it’s just a little squabble and will sound a lot worse than it really is. I found with my little foster dog that I needed to turn partly away and repeat “good dog, good dog,” to head off a fight. It was counterintuitive, but it mostly worked.
Also, curious whether the pit bull that went after your golden had a tail. My little foster dog had no tail. I think that dogs without tails get in way more fights, because they think they’re sending signals to the other dog when they’re not.
SAP,
“The solution — if both owners can abide it — is to let them have their scrap if they must, it’s just a little squabble and will sound a lot worse than it really is.”
Agreed, as most of these scraps end quickly. Trying to get between them almost guarantees getting bit, until the dogs back off, all things being equal between the dogs.
SAP,
My wife has a better recollection of the pitbull skirmish than I. She thinks he was a boxer mix.because he had the massive chest, brindle in color (kind of a tiger tripe), and he had a tail. All I recall was the head the size of a soccer ball, with the pitbull jaw. It probably outweighed my Golden by 15+ pounds, so letting things take their course would have likely involved a big vet bill for us. Just for perspective, we have several dog parks in the Seattle area. Lots of folks use them and all breeds, sizes and ages seem to do pretty well together. Not unusual to see Shepherds, Goldens, Airdales, poodles, weiner dogs and herding dogs together, sniffing, chasing balls and drinking/drooling from the same water bowls. Amazingly, there are few fights, in our experiences there, and the rare ones end pretty quickly. We quit going because these areas are like a giant petri dish for getting some dog illness that vaccinations don’t cover
.
PS: best tool ever for breaking up dogfights: inert bear spray — the training canisters that have no pepper, just the CO2 charge. Stops the dogfight, but doesn’t hurt the dogs nor make them unsuitable for transport.
Actually learned that when my dear little foster dog and a Airedale-x-border collie had to spend a few days together. That Airedale cross loves to bite.
We can hopefully all agree that neither the act of letting a dog attack a trapped coyote nor the mindset that is comfortable enough to post photos of it should have any place in our society. So how do we stop it? Surely not by chatting creepily about the nightlife in Missoula or by repeating the same old back and forth about hunting.
I’ve thanked the Sacramento Bee reporter. I’ve contacted Wildlife Services demanding this guy be fired. I’ve forwarded the articles to my senators along with a plea for them to look into the unethical and inefficient actions prevalent in Wildlife Services. But I’ve done all that before so it’s clearly inadequate. The Wildlife News has been all over Wildlife Services for years and almost everyone here express disgust but nothing ever changes.
Is it our lack of focus? There are so many problems these days and so many people eager to hijack reasonable debate. The strength of our opposition? The long entrenched institutions and ancient mindsets have created a seemingly unlevel playing field. Or are we just not smart enough for effective change anymore?
Aves
The change is happening, one can see change from the Idaho trapping photos. Change is slow and morons will be morons so you will also see more photos. Point is don’t expect quick results, you have to look back at history some times, it’s not a click and you get results world.
Nope, you are just another cog in the wheel, your demands will not be met in your lifetime. Never demand a government agency do anything, they will not listen and unfortunately, they will often turn on you and spend all they can to ruin you!
Aves I asked myself this same question many times. Not sure its a lack of focus. I think its a multi-faceted problem. Groups like the NRA, Big Game Forever, Safari Club International etc have invested huge amounts of money and successfully lobby against any initiatives to protect predators, acknowledge that animals are sentient beings, to curtail any measure no matter how reasonable (lead ammunition) etc. These groups also work in tandem with the livestock and agriculture industries. They are the equivalent of the extractive industries oil and coal in their power and the stranglehold they over congress. Wildlife advocates are constantly on the defensive. No matter how many times the public has spoken against drilling in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, that particular issue keeps getting thrust back at us. Like the sportsman heritage act…..like the delisting of wolves being put into a spending bill. The NGOs must compete for scare funds, many of the groups are run on shoestring budgets with overworked and underpaid staff or, unpaid as volunteers. And the advocates are often competing for the same funds and may not agree on strategies. I’d like to see predator advocacy NGOS work together. To organize an advisory or task force of sorts to identify common goals as well as to identify strategies that can be accomplished together in a unified way, with concrete deadlines. If the task force worked together to implement a particular campaign working as a unified force, there would be a much better outcome. The strategies need to be cohesive, national and unified.
This degenerate is likely the tip of the iceberg. It’s painfully clear that the USDA’s Wildlife Services Agency (formerly “Animal Damage Control”) is in need of serious reform.
WANT TO HELP? Contact Rep. Darrell Issa (R-CA), chair of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, U.S. House of Representatives, 2157 Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, DC 20515; tel. 202/225-5074; fax 202/225-3974.
Demand that the committee hold oversight hearings on this out-of-control agency.
And contact your own federal representative. If you don’t know who that is, see the “Government” pages in the front of your local phone book, then raise hell.
Worth noting, too, that here in California last August, the State Dept. of Fish & Game ordered a Wildlife Services agent to destroy a mountain lion and her three 18-month-old cubs in El Dorado County. Her crime? For allegedly killing a tethered (!) goat to feed her young. Current DFG regs require that depredation permits be issued for such an inanity. This, too, needs changing. Legislation is in order. ALL CALIFORNIA LEGISLATORS MAY BE WRITTEN C/O THE STATE CAPITOL, SACRAMENTO, CA 95814.
Sincerely,
Eric Mills, coordinator
ACTION FOR ANIMALS
Oakland
Thanks for the information Eric!
What is so sad about this particular thread…It has nothing to do with hunting, it has to do with a government agency that is paid to do this by any means possible! I don’t agree with this individuals actions, but without direction, people are going to do their job.
If things are going to change, the Wildlife Service is going to have to change. The service does a heck of a lot of good, but some of their programs are not good, just like every single government agency out there. Again, this is not a hunting story, it is a story that show, yet again another area that the government is failing.
Savebears-
It has everything to do with hunting. The alleged worker is supposedly a hunter who is involved with coyote tournaments.
This mentality is widespread in the hunting community and any assertion otherwise is complete denial.
This ws trapper Olsen participates in coyote hunting tournaments. He’s no different than any other coyote hunter out there who thinks the only good coyote is a dead one. Guys like Olsen are the reason why many people continue to be against hunting SPECIFICALLY those that think it’s a sport to kill coyotes, foxes, wolves, cougars, etc.
Jon,
Coyote killing tournaments.
Mike,
I am denying nothing, I am disagreeing with jerks like you that like to say all hunters are doing these actions, when you know it is not true, if you are going to move to Montana, you are going to have to at least change things a bit.
SB –
You don’t seem to get it. I’m friends with hunters (some in Montana, some of them famous photogs). I tell them right to their faces they’re idiots for doing it, and they still love me because they know my heart.
Mike,
You don’t seem to get it, I have many friends, that do stupid things, one that comes to Mind, got his ass eaten in Alaska, by a big grizzly bear, they have made movies and wrote books about him. Another of my friends got his butt chewed in Russia by another grizzly. Loved them both, but they were stupid in there actions.
As I have said in the past, you and I would probably get along just fine in person and now that you are moving to my area, perhaps we will have a chance to have a beer together and tell each other face to face how stupid each of us are!
lol!
Perhaps. I’ll definitely be in the North Fork from time to time. Wonderful country, but I still don’t understand why some would commute to Columbia Falls from there.
Neither do I Mike, the drive down the NF to C Falls is a bitch most of the time.
I don’t think this is an example of government failure – it is an example of employee failure. He needs to go. Granted, it appears that this agency has problems, and needs to get up to speed with the 21st century instead of still locked into the time and morals of when it was first founded – but this kind of cruelty is this man’s fault, it’s not a matter of not being given the proper direction. They need to be a little more particular in who they hire, or maybe it’s because there’s slim picking out there for coyote torturers.
And of course you know that I use the term “man” loosely in the above post. 😉
Did I miss read the particulars? This man is doing what he does on his personal time. Without the Internet this would have never been exposed and now this person is being railroaded. Nothing is personal anymore.
My question is who is the predator or more so who is stocking who to prove a point.
Robert R what are you talking about! “without the internet this would never have been exposed and now this person is being railroaded”. This person is a public employee, he posted images on a public forum. His behavior exhibits sadism, cruelty, and a lack of respect for the animals he tortured as well as for the people that were exposed his disgusting posts. Its beyond comprehension that you are defending his actions. If we did not have the internet, this would be taking place without any public attention. This is exactly the kind of abuse that needs to be ended, not defended.
Louise I was not defending him, I was making a point. Yes he is a public employee, but what he does or I do on my personal time is my problem not who I work for.
Your right without the Internet no one would exposed to the masses and this was the other point, ?
I was making a broad statement, when I said nothing is personal any more and its because of (watch dogs or Internet predators, whistle blowers) no one can say or do anything without being exposed and that includes you and I.
Many public employees have had their positions compromised by something that pops up on facebook/youtube that occurred during their personal time, whether they posted it or somebody else did.
Robert R – lets look at this from another direction.
Suppose you had a group of heartless morons in your neighborhood that enjoyed catching an unsupecting cow dog on the road (which they’d have no problem doing in my area) and for kicks and giggles, they would either run them down or shoot them. And for added fun, they’d take a video or pics of each incident, post it on the internet so they could “share” and re-live those exciting moments. Would your community be up in arms over that kind of situation? Would you find this sort of “entertainment” sick and disgusting?
Yes Nancy, it’s sick. As a reminder, there are thousands….THOUSANDS….of people just like Olson out there that get their kicks this way (check the internet). As I’ve said before on this site, 150 years ago people were the ones tortured also (native Americans, blacks, etc.). What’s changed in the 150 years that we don’t see this done to people any more (or very seldom)? Until we say what can and can’t be done to certain animals, this will continue.
I’m not talking PETA treehuggin’ animal rights, but norms among hunters.
So I am curious, would you guys be up in arms that I use my pointing dog to find and point upland birds for me to shoot? Chukars and huns etc??
Yes if you first trapped the birds and let the dogs torment them. Idiotic comparison.
No. I actually associate the use of dogs with bird huting. I have no problem with hunting for food. The dogs are supposed to find and retrieve the birds, right? In the case of Olson, he’s deliberately letting his dogs tear apart and kill the coyote while he’s in a trap, for no purpose other than entertainment? Or at the very least, killing an animal because of a warped, misunderstood image of predators. Don’t say that the pro-wolf types are the only ones!
As a hunter, you have a moral obligation to minimize the suffering of your prey as much as possible. I don’t understand allowing animals to languish in traps for days, either.
I am not much of a trapper, have no desire to do it. But a lot of my friends raise birds for the sole purpose of releasing them and hunting them with their dogs.
I know many coon guys that trap coons to train their dogs, its not something I have any interest in doing but I would not condemn them for it.
I have learned over time that it is impossible to please the “other” side, and vice versa. When I know an organization/person’s whole desire is to end hunting in general, I have ZERO desire to work with them in anyway for ethics/law reform etc. Which is pretty much par for the course in the hunting community.
“I am not much of a trapper, have no desire to do it. But a lot of my friends raise birds for the sole purpose of releasing them and hunting them with their dogs”
Josh – pen raised birds “planted” for the purpose of training bird dogs atleast have a few choices – hope the dog never catches their scent and are able to walk away, sit tight if it does or hope like hell if flushed from the brush, that you’re a lousy shot 🙂
Letting dogs rip apart trapped wildlife, unable to defend themselves, is just plain sick.
They all need therapy or better yet, a few days in a leg hold trap, without food or water and then bait in a pack of feral pigs or dogs, just to “spice” things up.
Not idiotic at all, airedales and other breeds were bred for hundreds of years to chase and kill prey. So if a guy wants to train a dog to kill coyotes. How would you expect the guy to do it?
So if I purchase pen raised quail/chukars that I keep in a crate and then release into a field for my dog to find (which I then shoot so he can retrieve them) I would be considered a barbaric serial killer… Is that correct?
This is not hundreds of years ago, the need to train dogs to kill wild animals has longed since passed. To do so in this day and age is nothing less than barbaric. This gas nothing to do with bird hunting and retreiving. This guy let his dogs torment trapped animals, if you find that acceptable your just as sick as he his.
“airedales and other breeds were bred for hundreds of years to chase and kill prey. So if a guy wants to train a dog to kill coyotes”
I would expect him to teach them to “”chase””them.
Are you really that stupid?
LOL, Jeff for real? So what happens when a young untrained dog “ctaches” said coyote?? You think a young dog with ZERO experience would have a good experience in that situation? Or do you think that if you built the dogs confidence up in situations that he will succeed in, then when he does “chase” down and attempt to kill a coyote the chance for injury etc will be significantly smaller. I know you have tons of “experience” in training hunting dogs, so I guess I will just take your word for it!
Are you really that stupid?? 🙂
Josh – why would someone want their dog to chase and fight with/kill a coyote? To what end? You’re not going to eat the coyote. The pelt is worthless after fighting with a dog. Your dog is going to the veterinarian (best case scenario). It’s not a humane or even efficient way to kill (a supposedly) “problem” coyote. It’s no different than dog fighting or cock fighting. No more humane, no more sporting, no more decent. It’s not hunting. Don’t represent it as hunting. You’re angry about something, I don’t quite understand what, but don’t paint hunters in yet another bad light by trying to defend such behavior – we don’t need more bad press and to be lumped in with (I suppose still “alleged”) degenerates like this guy. Fair chase, killing to eat, killing humanely, obeying laws and regulations, and above all ethical and humane behavior are what hunting should be about. When did lives (animal and human) become so disposable?
TC I have grown up and lived in rural areas my whole life, “problem” coyotes are VERY VERY difficult to deal with. Especially in areas with higher concentrations of people. Look at CA for example, coyotes are coming into peoples back yards to kill their pets. You cant call a “problem” coyote in and shoot it with a high powered rifle. You cant set traps up because of the risk of pets/children etc.
There are more than a few people that specialize in removing “problem” coyotes with coyote dogs like the ones in the picture. And if you think a 15-20lb coyote is gonna fare well against a 125lb+ airedale terrier you are out of your mind.
I have no problem with a guy training his dog to chase and kill coyotes. The dude worked for WS, I am sure a dog trained to effectively chase and kill coyotes would be a valuable tool for what he wants it to do.
Not angry about anything, why would you say that?
125 # airedale?
“I have no problem with a guy training his dog to chase and kill coyotes.”
I guess I do. But, that’s just me. Perhaps it will run into a 125 lb wolf, eh?
Also the method used by WS is a non factor, its not as if they started calling them in and killing them with a high powered rifle that all of a sudden you would be on board and condone what they do.
So agreeing or condemning this guy is useless for what he did, since the whole WS organization is vilified on this thread anyways. Regardless of whatever method they used to kill coyotes.
Josh, if you’re making this argument about everyone who posts here (that it doesn’t matter what WS does, we’re all against them), you’re wrong. A lot of people recognize the need for skillful practitioners who can deliver selective lethal control.
I object to Wildlife Services employees being unprofessional. I object to them playing judge, jury, and executioner. I object to them doing shoddy investigations, either out of sloppiness or out of a desire to kill wolves, any wolves, anytime, anywhere. I object to them flatly rejecting non-lethal techniques (which don’t always work, and take a lot of effort, but are typically way better than purely reactive approaches to predation management).
I get what you’re saying on a technical level about training Airedales, but ethically, I reject it. I wouldn’t build the confidence of stockdogs by turning them loose on crippled cattle, even though that might work. It’s just not right.
You don’t tear the wings off your pen-raised birds, do you? Or break the legs on your pen-raised pheasants so they don’t turn into runners?
Karelian bear dog handlers don’t turn their dogs loose on captive or snared or crippled bears, do they? No, not here in North America. They choose to use dogs, and they accept the risk that the dogs have to learn their jobs without artificial help.
You are free to think what you want, of course. What I see in those photos, while it may be a way to build the “confidence” of those dogs against coyotes, is contempt for an animal that just does what it does. It’s an attitude of “well, I’m gonna kill it anyway, what difference does it make how I kill it?” Same kind of attitude reflected in the bloody wolf-in-trap photos from Idaho: “I’m gonna kill it anyway, what’s three minutes of snapping photos?”
Part of me disbelieves that anyone is really that callous, and that the behavior we see is an attempt to beat down their own feelings of ambivalence, guilt, or compassion. Mostly, I believe that they are simply that callous, and they’re only sorry that they get caught.
AS always, well stated.
It took me a long time to wade through all of this! It’s always interesting how one subject branches out into so many others.
My first reaction to the photos was hmm… now what would have happened if that was a fair fight and those coyotes weren’t in a trap? I don’t like coyotes persay. They can be a nuisance in the area I live in. (yeah yeah, they were there first and so on and so forth, I know those arguments lol) However, what this guy did was just plain wrong.I think that’s all that needs to be said. He was wrong. This I would hope should be a black and white issue. I’m willing to bet ethical hunters would not condone this. At least, that is what I would hope for.
There is no “fair fight” between a large breed dog bred for centuries to kill animals like coyotes. Your talking about a 15-20lb coyote versus a dog 2-3 times its size, and usually they have more than one dog.
Very well stated,indeed,Sap!
“Mostly, I believe that they are simply that callous, and they’re only sorry that they get caught”
SAP – thanks, my thoughts too and why I feel there is SO much debate (and anger) here and on other blogs, when it comes to the difference between subsistence hunting and those that like to just kill, for the “thrill” of it – i.e. trophy heads, hides.
And then toss in “man’s” best friend, used and abused, by those who have a very warped sense of what life is all about.
“What I see in those photos, while it may be a way to build the “confidence” of those dogs against coyotes, is contempt for an animal that just does what it does”
SAP appreciate your comments, I am coming from the point of view of someone who has trained dogs for over 12 years. I have friends that run hounds on coons/bears etc. They ALL use captured coons to build prey drive and confidence in a dog. And they all SLOWLY build up confidence in a dog before turning it loose on a full grown mature bear/cougar.
I do pull the flight feathers out of birds so my young dogs can catch em after they flush. So yes I do alter the bird in some cases to help my dogs build prey drive/confidence.
I still firmly believe from reading the comments on this thread that ANY method of killing the coyotes in the pictures that were posted was pretty much irrelevant. I know you mentioned you see some value in WS, but I would bet the large MAJORITY on this blog are against them entirely. So it amuses me when I see posts of people condemning the method as if that is what bothers them. It is not the method, its WS in general. If the dude in question walked up to the coyote and shot it with a handgun would Nancy and Rita all of a sudden be on board??? You know the answer to that.
“If the dude in question walked up to the coyote and shot it with a handgun would Nancy and Rita all of a sudden be on board???”
Then he wouldn’t be taking a picture of a dog antagonizing a trapped, largely immobile animal.
And as far as WS goes, they do some good work, and they do some I would consider not so good.
You’ve dug a hole you can’t get out of. You’ve condoned the actions of the sick animal abuser in question. Doesn’t sit well here regardless of opinions of WS. Perhaps you should tuck your tail between your legs and go away.
Ha Timz, you are one confident dude!! No tail tucking here bud!
No Josh. Some of us on this site actually work with USDA WS (me included) – the good, ethical, responsible folks in the agency, and there are quite a few. Many have no association with the field agents that have to kill problem animals, but even amongst that cadre there are decent honorable people that perform their duties in an ethical and humane manner. I am not condemning WS in a blanket statement – I am condemning what this one agent did and will defend that opinion to the end. At the end of the day we all should try to live by some code of ethics, and to me decent people live by a code of ethics that involves treating other living beings with respect and dignity, even (especially?) if your job is to kill them on occasion. There are many management tools available – killing sentient beings by having them torn apart by dogs (even worse, while caught in a leghold trap) is NOT the only means available to achieve the goal, either in the Laramie Range outside Douglas, Wyoming, or in the suburbs of Los Angeles or Phoenix. I understand I cannot impose my ethics on you or anyone else, but personally I hope with age, experience, and introspection you will come to respect life a bit more. Just replace the coyote with one of your much cherished hunting dogs, and imagine someone exhibiting tremendous glee while their pitbulls or Rottweilers or great Pyrs tore it asunder. You then begin to walk a mile in the shoes of people disgusted by these actions.
Damn skippy, TC (I agree).
If there was a ‘like’ button on that reply, I’d click it.
TC, I know that WS encompasses a HUGE diverse set of services that it performs, with predators being one of them. I have watched this blog for years, and ANY sort of predator killing by WS is usually blasted on this blog. So that is my whole point that the action, which I personally would not do, but from a training perspective is probably a good approach. It is the actual “killing” of the predator that irritates those on this blog so much. This incident just allows them to scream louder, to deny that is impossible in my opinion!
I value life greatly, how could you pass judgement on me with knowing ZERO about me? I could pass the same judgement onto you also with very limited knowledge of who you actually are.
“Just replace the coyote with one of your much cherished hunting dogs, and imagine someone exhibiting tremendous glee while their pitbulls or Rottweilers or great Pyrs tore it asunder. You then begin to walk a mile in the shoes of people disgusted by these actions.”
It happens all the time when wolves get a hold of hounds and bird dogs. A few friends of mine in WI lost bird dogs this year to wolves. But according to a lot of those on this blog I should not be able to defend or protect my dog should a wolf attack it. So the story can fit either way depending on what side of the fence you are on! 🙂
“It is the actual “killing” of the predator that irritates those on this blog so much”
You still don’t get it numbnuts
(nuhm-nuhts) Noun 1. The stupidest of the stupid. A complete dumbass, one whose intelligence quotient does not surpass that of the average rock.
This sort of “killing” Josh, speaks volumes to those of us that truely appreciate wildlife and don’t go out and kill just for the thrill and enjoyment…because you can.
Nancy,
It is unfortunate, in this day and age, a lot of humans, do things “Just because they can”
Josh,
Surely both those who want to kill a coyote and those who don’t want any coyote to be killed can distinguish between methods that cause more harm to the animal than others. How an animal is killed should be a matter of great importance to everyone. The photos of the dogs attacking trapped coyotes are no different than photos of pit bulls fighting, that is if one of the pit bulls was caught in a trap.
You have repeatedly defended the actions in the photos and for some odd reason, perhaps under the mind control of PETA operatives, have attempted to draw parallels with other hunting practices. I realize you are trying to engage others on the broader topics of hunting and the lethal control of predators. But these photos are very shaky ground to stand on while you attempt to make your case or refute others.
While you defend the heathen’s action you also admit you wouldn’t do what he did, saying “the action, which I personally would not do…”. That begs the question, why not?
Nancy I do “get it”. You are disgusted with the fact this dude allowed his dog to attack and kill a trapped animal. I can understand exactly why you are mad.
BUT…….. If he had walked up and shot the coyote with a gun and killed it instantly it would still not change your stance on WS and predator killing. Thats why it cracks me up so much that you guys act as if he killed it quickly and humanely you would be a supporter of him. Which you know you would never be!!!!! Your just angry because he did it in a manner you dont agree with!!
Tell me I am wrong!!
“This sort of “killing” Josh, speaks volumes to those of us that truely appreciate wildlife and don’t go out and kill just for the thrill and enjoyment…because you can.”
How many animals have I killed this week cause I can? This month? Last month? This year? Do you know? Do I just kill hundreds of animals each month because I “can”? Please tell me Nancy.
Why do you assume I dont “value” wildlife?
“Tell me I am wrong!!”
You’re wrong Josh, If you’ve actually been following the posts here for years.
Pulling vital feathers, used for flight, out of the birds you use to “train” your dogs, speaks volumes about how you “value” wildlife.
I have Nancy in fact followed this blog for years, and have been quite active on the blog also. Just took a breather for a year….. 🙂
“Pulling vital feathers, used for flight, out of the birds you use to “train” your dogs, speaks volumes about how you “value” wildlife.”
You do realize that I kill them also, they are “hunting” dogs. Thats what they are bred to do. Why would me killing a bird with the aid of a “hunting” dog be a surprise to you?
I have put countless hours into habitat restoration, clean ups, fence removals etc. Its what a “sportsman” does to insure habitat stays strong and healthy. I value wildlife greatly. 🙂 I also hunt and kill wildlife which is where you and I probably split ways. Which brings us back to the point that anyway I “choose” to kill an animal is unacceptable to you. So yes I do value wildlife and enjoy being in the outdoors.
“I also hunt and kill wildlife which is where you and I probably split ways. Which brings us back to the point that anyway I “choose” to kill an animal is unacceptable to you. So yes I do value wildlife and enjoy being in the outdoors”
Yep and its obvious Josh.
Thanks for making my point Nancy!!!
You are anti hunting so trying to compromise with your side is useless!! 🙂
Larry,
Your comments make me sick. Who is the twisted one? Your presumptions and accusations of this person are completely unfounded.
The letter to this man’s employer is disgusting. What kind of organization attempts to take a man’s livelihood away because they disagree with him on an ethical level? Who is cruel and inhumane?
I examined the photos. Yes there is a dog there! And the animal is trapped. The dogs appear to be barking at the coyote/bobcat. Other than that I don’t see ANY evidence of ‘torture’. There is no sign of blood or evidence that the dogs have bitten the trapped animals.
From what I understand about these dogs, they are not used to attack coyotes! They are used to entice the coyote into a territorial response.
Thank you for this information. I am going to send the trappers supervisor an email in support of him.
Most of the offending photos were removed.
Are you kidding? These photos clearly depict dogs attacking the coyotes, bobcats, and raccoons while they are in the traps. Even if, as you say, these dogs are just barking at the animals then there is a problem.
It is amazingly unethical to bring any more pain or fear to these animals while they are completely defenseless.
The fact that this is a government employee who has done this makes it even worse. Wow, what a tin ear you have.
“From what I understand about these dogs, they are not used to attack coyotes! They are used to entice the coyote into a territorial response”
Oh come on Ben………All you have to do is google and you’ll find lots of “good ole boys” out there who just love running down coyotes with dogs.
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=23538
http://nitro.20m.com/
But if they just shot them you would be okay with it correct??? 🙂
Of course not, its the fact a coyote was killed that you have a problem with. So the method is a non factor Nancy!
Josh,
I can’t speak for Nancy, but the prescribed procedure for Wildife Services and professional private pest control is that when you kill an animal, it is done quickly, with minimal emotion.
The reason we keep up the photo of the pilots of the wolf killer airplane is that some of them lost their professional objectivity (regardless of whether you love or hate their profession).
I have heard some Wildlife Service agents have a very low opinion of the pilot(s).
No I understand Ralph, I guess I just get the feeling from some of the posts that if it was done a different way then they would be fine with it. Maybe I am just reading things into it myself! 🙂
Gonna be up in your neck of the woods next week chasing me some huns as long as this storm does not get nasty!
“Of course not, its the fact a coyote was killed that you have a problem with. So the method is a non factor Nancy!”
Josh,
If I understand you correctly, your point seems to be that since people like (we’ll say..) Nancy are allegedly opposed to lethal wildlife management, it doesn’t matter how they were killed. Is that right?
You’re missing the point that A LOT OF PEOPLE object to cruelty to animals (and wildlife), while only a MINORITY OF PEOPLE object to all killing of wildlife. It matters to people (and society) how animals meet their end. Being dismissive about peoples’ concerns regarding cruelty to animals because you disagree with them about hunting or lethal control only makes you look callous and out-of-touch.
Josh,
I live in an area where coyotes are fast becoming a nuisance. A part of me wants ’em gone. I’m afraid of what they can do, what they have done. But that part would not compromise wanting them gone with what happened in those pictures I saw. Getting rid of a ‘nuisance’ does not also include something like that. It makes my stomach turn every time I think of it. I absolutely hate HATE snakes, however, I also would not want to see them tortured. A clean kill is merciful and gets the job done. Period.
Harley what constitutes a nuisance, and what are you afraid of that coyotes wil do or have done? and just as an aside snakes are maybe as maligned as wolves. I don’d handle them but am fascinated whenever I see one.
I agree that an animal should never be tortured. I guess it comes down to if you have a “problem” coyote that warrants taking measures to get rid of it then you would hope to find a way that you would feel comfortable/agree with. Remember that video from Yellowstone a few years back when the coyote snuck up on the buffalo kill and the 4 wolves chased it down and killed it in like 2 seconds. Thats pretty much what happens I was told from an acquaintance that runs dogs on coyotes. Its over very quickly, the dogs dont want to prolong it from fear of injury. I stopped hunting coyotes a few years back and picked up chukar hunting! A lot more fun!
Louise,
Nuisance coyotes are those that snatch dogs from suburban backyards. Nuisance and dangerous coyotes are those who have become habituated to humans.
I too admire snakes. From a distance! 🙂
Josh, I remember that video. Hated it. But that coyote wasn’t trapped and helpless. He did have a chance to run. I object to those pictures.
No JB I understand that people would object to torturing any animal, as would I. I would never torture an animal in the way the pics were presented. It just bugs me when people, say like Nancy, hammer on the guy for his method. But if he posted a video of him walking up and shooting the coyote quickly with a gun the rant would be the same. And you know it would, that is my point.
I understand why he would do it from a training method, does not mean I condone it. But I understand why he would do it, cause I know a lot of coon guys that do the same thing with coons for their hounds. I will stick with chukars, its a little easier.
“But if he posted a video of him walking up and shooting the coyote quickly with a gun the rant would be the same. And you know it would, that is my point.”
I don’t personally know Nancy’s mind, but let’s assume for argument’s sake that you’re right. My critique is still the same–these are two different issues. What you seem to be saying is that you can summarily dismiss Nancy’s opinion on one issue (allowing a confined wild animals to be attacked by one’s dogs) because she disagrees with you on another issue (dispatching a trapped animal with a firearm). I just don’t think that’s a very productive way to approach problems.
Troll………
Sorry………. Ben’s post above.
Ben had a short life in this forum.
So those that dont share your same views are trolls…..
Wow in support of the trapper? your letter will be lost in the flood of mail from people who have a lot more heart then you and have their eyes wide open.
I don’t understand how any sane or normal person can support this trapper’s behavior. If you have any compassion for animals, you would speak out against what this trapper did.
“But if they just shot them you would be okay with it correct???
No Josh – Go back to the top of this thread and read it again.
Anti-hunting? I believe I’ve stated on more than a few occasions here that I’m not against subsistence hunting. But that is not what this thread is about.
Its about a guy, employed by the government to “address” problem predators and his obvious glee, whether on or off the job, exposed, while in that capacity.
So Nancy, answer this question for me and I will be done with this thread. If he walked up to the coyote and shot it with a gun would you object to that? Of course you would.
Cause then you would object to the fact that he was caught in a trap. Which you would not agree with, then you would object to the fact that non-lethal matters were not explored first. Then you would say that since he had a residence/ran cows on public then he should understand that predators are part of the problem and should manage accordingly. So the end game is that REGARDLESS of whatever method this WS employee chose to kill the coyotes in question you would disagree with it! So I can understand the outrage from a torture/cruelty perspective, but the only way you would be happy is if the coyote was never killed/trapped in the first place. Thats why I rarely if ever negotiate/compromise with people on the “other” side because I know their end game is to eliminate things I enjoy like hunting. Similar to the whole camel wanting to stick his nose in the tent during a sandstorm analogy. Before you know it he is in the tent and you are outside! 🙂
Josh – it would appear you’ve already decided what my answer will be so please take your own advise:
“Thats why I rarely if ever negotiate/compromise with people on the “other” side”
And FYI – if the camel was suffering ill effects from the sandstorm, I’d do what I could to make room in the tent for both of us 🙂
Great answer Nancy……….
The problem is Nancy the camel is in the tent and you are outside! That is the whole point of the analogy! 🙂
“Thats why I rarely if ever negotiate/compromise with people on the “other” side because I know their end game is to eliminate things I enjoy like hunting.”
So it is the “slippery slope” argument, then? Failure to acknowledge the legitimacy of this person’s opinion make’s you (and others like you: read hunters) look like…compassion-less jerks. Hunters silence on such issues only serves the narrative (and outrage) of people who oppose the activity. As it stands, hunters have public opinion on their side, but they won’t for long if you stand by and silently condone these types of activities, or worse, support them by working against people like Nancy on principle.
Josh,
I am a hunter and fights for hunters on this blog quite often, I don’t agree with what this WS employee is showing in his pictures, you have dug in on a subject that there is no winning, you are not represenative for many of us that hunt, you need to sit in the corner and reevaluate your position.
The only way anything good is going to come, is with comprimise on both sides. At this time you have dug your heels in, not a good position to be in.
SB, I understand why he would do it from a training perspective. I would not do it myself, but I understand why he would do it. So if that condemns me in your eyes so be it! 🙂
I am all about compromise, but the compromise would go as follows. Dont torture coyote, okay done, now dont trap the coyote, okay done, now dont shoot the coyote.
People have advocated on this blog for years that they are against any sort of lethal control for predators. You know that, you have read the posts yourself. So I guess I have a hard time seeing what “my side” has to gain from the “other side” when their end goal and my end goal are on different sides of the map! 🙂
JB, lets follow your path of reason. I understand someones feeling of disdain for torturing an animal. I would never torture an animal.
But these things follow a simple path, one the torture of the animal outrages an individual. So then the coyote is just shot, but then same individual is outraged that the coyote was trapped. So then the coyote is just shot not trapped, then said individual is outraged coyote was shot. The only compromise is that the coyote is not shot…. Which is where the negotiation usually ends. No one here is advocating “humane” lethal predator control. The LARGE majority on this blog are against predator control for ANY REASON. So I understand the outrage for the WS individual torturing the captured coyotes with his dog, but the whole fact that there are some that want predators controlled is what separates the both sides.
Josh – have to be brief b/c I have snow to plow: is there any point to getting hung up on what you believe the majority of this blog’s “regulars” think about hunting and predator control?
The webmasters would know way better than I do, but my sense is there are maybe 30 “regulars,” and by my reading, maybe MAYBE 10 of those are staunchly opposed to hunting altogether. I’m not sure because a number of folks have dropped out over time; some have been banned (yes, some pro-wolf ones, too); some are only here from time to time.
Anyway, I think that the more important point is that there is a vast undecided constituency out there in the world, beyond this blog. The regulars here are a tiny self-selected minority who are passionate about wildlife: obviously, from blog activity, a lot of this tiny minority wakes up in the morning thinking about wildlife, and we don’t stop thinking about it until we fall completely asleep.
The vast undecided majority most likely doesn’t fill up their cognitive space in this way. One could say they don’t care. I say they do, sporadically. Their attention to wildlife may come in short, intense bursts. What causes those bursts? Either direct experience (a trip to Yellowstone, perhaps) or by seeing awful images like the ones we’re discussing here.
For example, last April’s awful wolf-in-trap photos ricocheted around the world; see Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/us-forest-service-employee-under-fire-for-photographing-wounded-gray-wolf-before-killing-it/2012/04/05/gIQAbOAXxS_blog.html
I wouldn’t be so concerned about what regulars on this blog think. I’d be concerned that even modest predator management programs could be abolished, or that hunting could be regulated out of existence, because that vast undecided, non-(not anti)hunting majority out there sees things like this. And then when they try to find out what’s going on, they run into people like YOU who will rationalize, defend, or say “who am I to judge?”
Hunters need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Watch some of those “shooter porn” TV shows with a suburban non-hunter. Think about this “tradition.”
I still believe (maybe naively), that most hunters can and do feel empathy for the critters they hunt and kill and utilize. But I think they can’t deal with those feelings, so they look away from them or pretend they aren’t there. I think they’re afraid of where those emotions might take them: away from hunting, away from their identity as “hunter,” away from tribal affiliation with the camo clan.
[The new brain science is showing us that social rejection/exclusion, and loss of identity, feel the same as physical pain to the brain.]
It doesn’t have to take you away from hunting to think about these things. In fact, I think it can take hunting to a far deeper, more meaningful level to consider the prey animal and its feelings. Becoming a poetic/philosophic hunter may in fact take you away from some other hunters, but they may be the ones you don’t need in your life anyway.
so much for being brief! Back to the plow . . .
SAP – Fast approaching a foot of snow here in the last 24 hours. If I’m lucky, I might see my plow guy sometime tomorrow 🙂
Boy Nancy,
Must be nasty down your way, we have got about 3 inches up here in the North Fork, so not to bad, thank god, cause I need to put the front drive line back in the plow truck!
++Thats why I rarely if ever negotiate/compromise with people on the “other” side because I know their end game is to eliminate things I enjoy like hunting.++
Well, josh, you’re dumber than I thought, and you prove the point with each subsequent post. The “other side,” I expect has gradations, just as “your side” does. The real question you should ask yourself is what kind of an effect you have when you are unwilling to compromise, and what that does in the end for your continued desire to hunt,however you personally define that activity.
When people like you dig in to hold the line, you jeopardize hunting for all who enjoy the activity, and you give “the other side” exactly the kind of stereotype they can point to, to advance their argument. You can put me in the “other side” camp, if with your current attitude.
And, by the way, you have been beaten up pretty good in this recent dialog, by folks with both knowledge and reasoning skills, well beyond your own. Could there be a lesson in all that?
Josh/elkhunter has from time to time come on this site to ,apparently, amuse himself by believing he is baiting posters here. It goes on for a bit and then he leaves with his tail tucked between his legs again. Happens about once a year or so.
He can then go down to the local Sportsmen(for some)fish and (some)wildlife and tee-hee with the group about how he has edjicated those damn evvirimentalists, all the while hoping that Peay the putz will make an appearance so that Josh can hump his leg.
Jeff E I love your comments! I leave with my tail tucked between my legs! Ha, classic! Actually I get busy in the outdoors doing stuff ya know. Like hunting, fishing, training dogs etc. Also had two kids in the last couple years, changed jobs, shaved a few strokes off my golf game! So those things kinda keep me busy! 🙂 But I like to swing in and see how the “other side” is coming along.
I actually am tiring of SFW in the state of UT and hope things change soon. I am sick of management being focused towards those with money. Would like to see a lot of changes within my state. I hope SFW loses its strangle hold, also Jeff E I know you are an expert in all things hunting in the west, but more sportsman are probably against SFW than they are for! I am with you, I hope things change soon! So there, I compromised with the “other side”!
elkhunter,
Good news on your opinion of SFW. Most people on this site came to that conclusion years ago.
All rhetoric aside my main issue with you is the one and only argument you ever advance amounts to “I know you are but what am I?”
“All rhetoric aside my main issue with you is the one and only argument you ever advance amounts to “I know you are but what am I?””
How the hell did ya come to that conclusion? LOL! I guess if saying that its hard or difficult or pointless do compromise/agree with someone that wants to limit or end something that I am passionate about then I guess I will have to say… I know you are but what am I! 🙂
Also Jeff E I am leaving to go hunt elk for 3-4 days so I wont be responding, just so ya know I did not run off! But will be back next week, and if this topic is alive and well I will jump back in!
I am so glad to see a average income (I’m guessing here) hunter figure out that Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife is for the rich hunter.
Good thinking, Josh!
Oh I bet they have gradations just as I do. Going to the negotiating table with HSUS or PETA is useless. What do I stand to gain from negotiating with someone who wants to end the whole thing we are negotiating about? What could I possibly gain? Their acceptance for a few more years while they try to pass more legislation to restrict what I love to do? Sorry man!! 🙂
Perfect example is the wolves in the Great Lakes area. Thriving populations, excellent management and now an opportunity to delist them and allow states to manage them. Which they have shown for years that they are capable of doing that. But the “other side” is suing the daylights out of em to keep them on the list! Perfect example.
“And, by the way, you have been beaten up pretty good in this recent dialog, by folks with both knowledge and reasoning skills, well beyond your own. Could there be a lesson in all that?”
Declaring a winner already?? !! Geez I thought we were just getting started! 🙂
I served a mormon mission in Boston and would constantly run into people who wanted to debate religion. A lot of them wanted to debate the existence of God, so we had me who believes in God, trying to debate with someone who does not believe in God, about the existence of God! Confusing right! It was useless debating about something the other side did not even believe existed in the first place! Its the same way debating with the “other side”. The large majority of the “other side” does not even believe that a thing like “predator management” is even needed or exists. Now on “my side” I believe it exists. So I can already tell you how those compromises/debate would go!
But as for should the guy of tortured the coyotes with his dog? NO, will I start a Facebook page and smear campaign against him? NO. Does that condemn me in your eyes? If so then so be it! 🙂
As long as you keep seeing things in terms of ‘us and them’ on polar opposite sides, you’ll be stuck in that duality. Your trip, dude….
For a guy thats religious, you don’t reflect much grace. Or is that reserved for humans only? Why?
Mark I would never torture an animal, I dont agree with what this guy did. Do I understand it from a training/experience perspective for his dogs? Yes. Would I use the same methods? No. Am I going to go completely out of my way to smear his reputation, get him fired etc? No.
I love the outdoors and animals, I practice endlessly so that I dont wound game but kill them quickly. I treat my dogs like they are a part of the family. I do feel a sort of sadness when I kill a deer or an elk, they are beautiful animals. But I enjoy the meat and the time in the mtns.
“As long as you keep seeing things in terms of ‘us and them’ on polar opposite sides, you’ll be stuck in that duality. ”
I see your point of view 100%!! But its the same on the “other side”. The Great Lakes are a perfect example. Healthy and thriving wolf populations, states that have shown they will manage them effectively and fairly. Thousands of wolves, they are taken off of the endangered list and there is an immediate onslaught of lawsuits to prevent it. When “my side” has shown for years that they will be responsible in managing their wolf populations. So it does not really give me much comfort to see how big of a success the Great Lakes wolf population is for the “other side” and they still will not budge!
josh,
Let’s take advantage of an instructive moment here, if you have the time to read rather than prostheletizing, or defending yourself from the hole that you dug on this thread.
Defenders, after it saw the political winds changing, came out in support of the Western Great Lakes DPS wolf delisting. Read this:
http://www.defenders.org/sites/default/files/publications/recovery-of-gray-wolves-in-western-great-lakes.pdf
HSUS/PETA which never want wolves delisted anywhere have about played their last card on the WGL wolves. There is little chance they will be relisted, unless HSUS can find some highly technical ESA flaw that will allow it. It sure as hell won’t be on the science of recovery. Defenders and others have already figured out screwing with this in court, even if they wink, has some pretty big risks for ESA changes most of us do not want.
Well,Josh,JB and WM couldn’t have said it anymore plainer or better.
Lest we forget this is the same WS guy who is/was organizing a Coyote Derby — that he later cancelled with an excuse I am somewhat skeptical of ( conflicted with the election ????).
I’m speculating he was told to cancel it while knee down on a carpet somewhere.
Organizing a coyote derby is , to me, a smoking gun for bad ethics. YMMV.
SB – just went out to get the chickens up for the night and had to “break trail” once again, to their digs.
Took a measurement and I’ve now got 11 inches of fresh snow on the ground and its still coming down 🙂
Trappers and trophy hunters are the lowest level of humanity. Trapping coyote and then letting their dog or dogs finish it off is not uncommon. Another sport these types enjoy is running down animals with snowmobiles. I asked a trapper how He felt about trapping wolves (Lolo and Selway regions)that have pups. He said “all the better”. I recently heard a trapper tell his 110 lb. german sheperd that he would trap a coyote for it that afternoon when they get back to the Ketchum area.
I assume that their are trappers who aren’t extremely perverted but I have yet to meet one.
http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/wyoming/investigation-zeroes-in-on-wyoming-trapper-who-posted-photos/article_064b46da-58f9-5a16-8aee-07f1acc3bfb2.html?comment_form=true
more on Jamie Olsen and the investigation
This will make my day. Off to read!
and the link Ryan uses does not support his contention that wolves are the primary reason for the declines of elk in these regions.
“BILLINGS, Mont. — An acclaimed elk herd in Yellowstone National Park took a major hit last year, with biologists saying almost one in four of the animals were lost, mainly to predators and hunters.”
oops the e mail for Big Game Forever is not posted yet and this refers to that post