Judge Molloy could allow hunts to procede or stop them despite the on-going sale of tags-
I’ve also wondered if some middle ground ruling is possible, given the intense emotion on both sides of the issue. I’d like to see a new delisting rule crafted. The content of the current rules bothers me more than the wolf hunt because as always the real threat to the long term viability of the wolf recovery are the cattle and sheep industries and their captive federal agency, Wildlife Services, that goes around killing wildlife some influential people think are problems.
Story in the Missoulian. By John Miller, AP.
If the hunt is canceled Idaho wolf tags sold (over 10,000) will have to be refunded. There will probably be some illegal or vigilante action this time. Hopefully folks will obey the law. It’s doubtful, however, that enough wolves would be killed illegally to make any biological difference to the states’ wolf population.
Comments
The hunt is solid this time and I think it is going to take place. But I tend to conclude it won’t effect the wolf population to any threatening degree. Hunts for Idaho and Montana are set to 220 and 75 respectfully, not horribly large. Also, I don’t think there will be a significant amount of illegal kills, unless there were really a vast amount of hunters who were angry enough to do so. All in all, I hear wolves are harder to hunt then some other animals; However, there hasn’t been any official wolf hunts yet.
I guess everyone is waiting to see what the judge decides before commenting.
HLN news is covering this story and is asking for comments for their show. By phone or email. I didn’t catch the phone number but you can go to HLN.com to get it or make a comment. Most of the comments that were aired were definitely pro-wolf but very few were based on scientific knowledge. Mostly sentimental. So everyone please make comments.
It’s on like Donkey Kong
http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/882863.html
I think the story is a bit misleading. There is no indication one way or the other.
He could still rule today.
An updated version of the story ends with this gem:
http://www.idahostatesman.com/531/story/883327.html
Aaron – as has been stated numerous time on this blog, the quota for Idaho includes 35 for the tribes, which makes 255 wolves that can be killed, or at least turned in. That doesn’t include all the ones that will be shot and left in the field, or as the anti-wolfers like to suggest most often, gut shot and left to die a slow death.
The judge didn’t issue an injunction. The wolf hunt starts tomorrow. The nightmare has become true. Suggest everyone who likes wolves, to get into their vehicle, bring your firearms and boxes of ammo, and drive to the Sawtooth Zone where the 7-month hunting season launches at dawn tomorrow. Start target practicing tonight, continue at dawn tomorrow and keep shooting.Move from drainage to drainage. This is your 2nd amendment right. Caution – the law enforcement is going to be more interested in arresting people trying to protect wolves, than those shooting wolves illegally.
Also – IDFG is reading this blog. Mark Gamblin isn’t commenting here on his own. He’s trying to bait bloggers into saying things that can be followed up on so that Idaho can try and charge wolf supporters with breaking the law.
What is customary in a situation like this? Would the judge rule right there on the spot or could he wait a while?
Ken,
He can wait as long as he wants, taking the arguments into consideration then make a ruling, if he decided not to rule right away, that would suggest, he is not of the belief there is a convincing argument that shows irreparable harm will occur if the hunt is allowed to continue, at least that is how I interpret the extra time before ruling..but of course I am not a legal person, but this is based on what I have seen in the past..
The judge could wait a while and see what develops. The unfolding of the hunt could give him an idea whose arguments are more valid. If there are lots of gut shot wolves left to die (not tagged as Lynne Stone says there will), this will become evident. If few wolves are shot, so will this.
From my understanding from a conversation, it is uncommon that the judge would rule from the bench.
I think that the IDFG created this “crisis” situation by revealing their hunting rules so close to the actual hunt. They want this kind of craziness and confusion to happen just before the hunt.
I think the statement made by Malloy is a good sign he is very skeptical of the agencies in this situation.
The brief we filed made a good point: How can the FWS claim that wolves are not endangered in a significant portion of their range if they are still threatened in Wyoming? Even by FWS’s interpretation of “significant portion of its range” this would seem to be in error.
I don’t think Stone’s suggestion very wise. The time for that kind of wolf education is over.
However, if anyone decides you be out there shooting to miss, they should definately buy a hunting license and a wolf tag. If they have these, Idaho Fish and Game would have no reason to give anyone trouble.
If fact, those who set out to find wolves to kill or to scare are not likely to have much success. Most of the wolves in range will come as a sudden opportunity when people are doing something else. Not many people can track wolves on foot or vehicle and move in for a shot.
I don’t think Stone’s suggestion is very wise. The time for that kind of wolf education is over.
However, if anyone decides to be out there shooting to miss, they should definitely buy a hunting license and a wolf tag. If they have these, Idaho Fish and Game would have no reason to give anyone trouble.
If fact, those who set out to find wolves to kill or to scare are not likely to have much success. Most of the wolves in shooting range will come as a sudden opportunity when people are doing something else. Not many people can track wolves on foot or vehicle and move in for a shot. I imagine most will be shot in the course of the elk and deer hunts.
I agree with Ralph, if your going to be out there shooting, it would be very wise to have a lic and tag, because this is published on a public blog, it could be interpreted as harassment of both wildlife and hunters, which if I am not mistaken, is illegal in Idaho as well as Montana…
if the judge does not rule right away that does not necessarily mean that he favors abstaining from issuing an injunction.
one might remember when Rocky Barker wrote up a post (Molloy leaves wolf case watchers waiting) on how the judge would likely not issue an injunction of the original Bush rule because he had waited months since the arguments were held :
The next day, the judge issued the injunction and Rocky was a pretty stand up guy in admitting his mistake.
The judge could rule from the bench – or wait months. who knows…
for those interested, I have just posted another brief wolf advocates filed with the court :
Reply in Support of Motion For Preliminary Injunction (pdf ~ 200 KB)
ID and MT purposefully set up a crisis by starting seasons when they did.
I think the Judge wants to make a considered and careful decision.
I also see the Wolf Twitter feed here states what IDFG has been hiding: That the 6 dead wolves of the Soldier Mountain pack are 99.9% likely to have died from poison.
Perhaps if Mark Gamblin is monitoring and baiting, he could take the bait to get his bosses to warn the public including those with dogs of dangerous substances being tossed out on Forest Service lands north of Fairfield.
i think IDFG has been trying to keep the poisoning quiet so Judge Molloy could not be informed of ongoing lawlessness …
I was at the hearing today and I am thinking the judge wanted time to issue an injunction so that the hot heads from Idaho would leave. I kid you not -these people were amazed they could not bring knives into a federal courthouse. And they are going to stick by the rules??
Laws covering knives are very all over the map..and the practice of carrying knives is very common in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, it depends on the municipality that the courthouse is located in, I have carried my knife in the Federal Court House in Missoula with no problems at all…it is a folding knife with a 3.5 inch blade, the guards looked at it and handed it back to me and noted on the sign in sheet that I had a pocket knife with me…
I hope you that plan on going out to take up target practice make damn sure of what’s behind your target. If someone gets hurt or even killed from a stray shot because your trying to scare wolves away all hell could break loose. You’ve accused others on here of being overly emotional, I’m seeing the same thing, especially from Lynn. Emotion clouds judgement, be careful with what you do.
Really? I have never been allowed to carry much in there and I have done a years’ worth of jury duty. Could have been the context of the hearing. Not to mention the fact that some of these hotheads were speaking of civil war to the press if the injunction went into place. As far as a common citizen I find that scary…..
Civil war is being discussed all over the country in many different contexts right now, there are many states asserting their 10th amendment rights..most of the time, I see it in conjunction with gun rights, but have heard this before in context of the wolf de-listing..so time will tell, as I have said in the past, I don’t worry about the loudmouths as much as I do about those who don’t say anything…
yes I would agree with you there…but standing next to Mr. Gillette I wondered if he was going to knock me over…..
Gillette is an asshole with a mental disability has hatred has clouded any common sense he may have had long ago, I have met Gillette and he can be intimidating…but he is nothing more than a punk….with a loud mouth….of course he did assault one of the ladies that posts on this blog, he should have been thrown in jail…
kt says:
“I also see the Wolf Twitter feed here states what IDFG has been hiding: That the 6 dead wolves of the Soldier Mountain pack are 99.9% likely to have died from poison.”
Where did you get the 99.9% likely from? Last I heard they did not know the cause of death.
I hope nobody is irresponsible enough to follow Lynne Stone’s advice and go shooting up every canyon all day long. There are tons of hikers, mtn. bikers, and also archery hunters up most of the canyons in the Sawtooth Valley area. Very dangerous suggestion.
This person posted as Brian E. So as not to have confusion with Brian Ertz, I have renamed him or her “Brian TT. Ralph Maughan
Idaho carries many hunts every year and majority of us Idaho hicks as you make us obey the rules yearly, as for the very few that dont, well… they give us all a bad name but season or not they do it. Many ppl from Idaho, Montana, well all over the united states use knives in day to day life i am not sure why you think it is illegal to carry one. I think this is one of the problems with this situation the same ppl who oppose the hunt dont understand the culture of these areas or our way of life. I wish that they would leave it up to the people of the states of Idaho and Montana. I think the supporters of the hunt would be tenfold those who oppose it.
I have spent a lot of time observing and sometimes photographing wolves. I think the wolves are going to be very easy to find and kill. (Stop at the nearest sheep camp and ask the radio-collar- receiver equipped herders)
It will take them a long time to associate the noise of a rifle shot with a pack member being killed. (Especially if someone has been shooting at them just to scare them)
The pups (Many are still at rendezvous sites.)won’t have a clue and will mill around while they are shot down. If all 10,000 tag buyers start to hunt this week, it would not surprise me to see the 220 wolf quota reached the first month of the season, or even sooner.
Eric E:
6 wolves all dead close together and even said to be facing in pretty much the same direction … There are photos that should be released (or FOIA’d ) … This site is around 15 miles from where the wolf was killed with 1080 – and the public not informed until long after by IDFG – 8 or 9 years ago north of Fairfield.
Larry i agree that the wolves will probly not associate the sound of a gun with a packmate being killed but infact this will keep the wolves away from humans which will lead to less problems. I doubt very few of the packs are easily viewed and photographed and of those that are i believe less are in huntable areas. Sense there has never been a season in Idaho or Montana i think out of the 10k tags sold very few of those know how or intend to hunt wolves. i know many bought them incase they see a wolf during the deer or elk hunts. I also know many who bought them to show support for the hunts. in my mind 10,000 Idahoans have shown were they stand on this subject in 1 week!!! INCLUDING ME!!!
The 6 wolves apparently poisoned. I realy hate to see this sort of thing happen, they need to bring the ppl responsible to justace. I am a avid hunter, fisher, outdoorsman. But i obey the rules and laws. its this kind of blaten unlawfulness that gives hunters bad names. If these wolves were causing problems there are lawful steps that can be taken i sure hope they find out who did this and make them pay.
I hope judge Molloy is reading this. The thought that pups can scavenge and live without their parents blows me away….
A pack cares for the litter as a whole, and at 6 months thes “pups” can weigh as much as 90 lb or more thats enough weight to bring down a deer or a young elk and hunt on there own. But if one is shot they will have plenty of help from the rest of the herd.
It is Unlawful to Intentionally interfere with the lawful taking of wildlife or lawful predator control by another. But it seems some here think it’s ok for themselves to break the law! Also the Wolf lovers probably don’t know there are certain Calibers allowed for big game hunting ,so if your out shooting a shotgun with a Wolf tag it’s Illegal.
It will indeed be interesting to see what the news has to report tomorrow evening!
Chance,
At 6 months pups don’t weigh 90 pounds ever, although a growth spurt starts soon and a few have weighed 100 by 10 months!
Most of the pups right now are 30 – 45 pounds
Craig,
I don’t know that people going out with a license and a tag and shooting and missing is unlawful, but I do think it is a bad idea, and, anyway, next to useless for those who don’t want wolves to be killed during a hunt.
I hope no one does it.
Let’s allow this to play out in the courts and politically!
I dont think he will make a decisioun for a week maybe more, i think he will wait and see how the hunt goes and the numbers killed. If it is slow i think he may let it continue but if it is fast and furious he will shut it down. Even if he does make the decision tomorrow there will be ppl hunting in the 2 areas open in idaho so even if a 1 day season there will be a season and i would guesse wolves killed.
Chance,
I think you are probably right.
http://books.google.com/books?id=M_q5FP2olaEC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=what+do+wolves+weigh+at+6+months&source=bl&ots=I76OtTjbyt&sig=_J0cdMGWdvFqRQJYH-Bv28VOR_w&hl=en&ei=eVWcSreaFIeKsAOa4dHaBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=what%20do%20wolves%20weigh%20at%206%20months&f=false
this talks about a alberta wolf caught at 7 months weighing 95 lb while that may be extreme it is possible. it also says wolves grow at a rate of 2.6-3.3 lb per week for the first 6 months of there lives. that averages to 62-79 lb at 6 months. large enough to survive. Canada is were these wolves came from right?
Craig, the Idaho rules are actually pretty open on firearms and what size they need to be, if a shotgun, it must have shot no smaller than 00 buck, but there is no real caliber restrictions, unless your talking about muzzle loaders, but there is no specific rule about wolves and what can be used to hunt them….
Also most hunters going out this early are Bow Hunters, your chance of getting a Wolf with a bow is pretty slim. I don’t think people are going to waste vacation time, spend a bunch of money to hunt just a Wolf. They will get a tag and if they get the chance during a Deer or Elk hunt then take it. Vast majority of Hunters are to lazy to walk very far, especially when it’s as warm as it is now.
So based on reading the rules, as long as you have 00 or bigger, or a slug in your gun, you are legal to hunt wolves as well..
Chance,
The pups are 4 -5 months old now. They are born in April to early May.
Save bears, most people who don’t hunt aren’t going to have high powered rifles. Maybe a .22 or shotgun here is what the rules read.
Rifle and Shotgun
In any hunt, including any-weapon seasons, it is unlawful to
pursue or kill big game animals:
• By any means other than approved firearms,
muzzleloaders and archery methods.
• With any electronic device attached to, or incorporated
on, the firearm or scope; Except scopes containing
battery powered or tritium lighted reticles are allowed.
• With any firearm that, in combination with a scope, sling
and/or any attachments, weighs more than 16 pounds.
• With any fully automatic firearm.
• With any shotgun using shot smaller than #00 buck.
• With any rimfire rifle, rimfire handgun, or muzzleloading
handgun, except for mountain lion.
Short Range Weapons
In big game seasons restricted to short-range weapons,
it is unlawful for hunters to use any weapon other than a
muzzleloader, archery equipment, crossbow, or a shotgun
using slugs or shot of size #00 buck or larger
craig
its definatly not very warm in stanley i was there a week ago and froze 4 out of the 5 nights we were there. but i do agree not many are going to be out there tell the rifle hunts but there are always those die hards and i imagine there are some outfitters after them.
Ralph
I just used 6 months as a general
I think if the pups are smaller than the adults less pups will be shot.
I do wonder if you shot a wolf tomorrow if the hide would even be good. still fairly warm and they probly havnt got any of there winter fur yet.
Yup, Craig, that is the exact same thing I read, it only states, that if a shotgun it has to have slugs or buckshot bigger than 00, as they allow hunting of Mt Lions with a .22 rimfire, I would not be surprised to see it allowed for wolves, but as it has not been specifically addressed in the rules, that is pure speculation on my part…
I know a lot of people who don’t hunt that have high powered rifles as well as shotguns….
I suspect that wolf hides are pretty poor right now….
Craig,
That is funny, I would have assumed bowhunters, at least good ones, would have better success due to the fact that they use elk calls extensivly, rely on sent blocking clothing, and tend to use sent such as cow estrus to cover human smell. Hell there are even bow hunters that claim to have had a pack of wolves cicle there tent for hours on end while they huddled within.
I als wonder about those that use dogs to hunt bear and cougar. Will they be able to fill a wolf tag if a pack comes in on their dogs.
Chance I’ve done taxidermy for over 11 years and the hides would be worthless right now. If you didn’t skin it immediately, flesh it ,salt it and pack it in ice I gurantee you’d lose half the hair on a hide.
JEFF E, it’s possible but with a wolfs scense of smell and a sweaty human covered in elk piss, I’m sure they could detectthe human scent. If you aren’t down wind from Elk they too pick it up and high tail it!
Larry,
I have a hard time believing that the wolf hunt will be as easy as you say. Maybe in some areas it will be a little easier at the begining but although we see wolf sign everytime we go out we seldom see the wolves. They’ve set a quota of 30 for North Idaho and I’ll be very surprised if even 50% is met. It’s to steep and thick up here to be that easy.
Save bears Says:
August 31, 2009 at 5:09 PM
So based on reading the rules, as long as you have 00 or bigger, or a slug in your gun, you are legal to hunt wolves as well..
In an any weapon zone …yes but what I was getting at is most people on here that DON’T hunt Don’t have Slugs or high powered shells for shotguns, if they did have a shotgun they would most likely have bird shot(illegal)in a big game season and (more than likely) they wouldn’t have a high powered rifle. They might have a .22 also illegal in a big game hunt. So if they are out shooting to scare wolves, which is illegal and they get checked they could get fined. That’s all I was getting at.
cobra
i am interestead on how many wolves are killed i am with you i think the hunt will be alot slower than ppl think. ppl have talked like the wolves are hand fed and are going to stand there like a caged animal while you shoot them. Wolves which are basicly a dog are one of the smartest mammals there are. I think once ppl start shooting or chasing them around they will disapear and become all but nocturnal.
Craig,
I don’t know that you have been following this blog for long but just recently within the last two weeks Mark Gamblin from IDFG stated that a wolf pelt taken now would be somthing to the effect of a valued trophy to the hunter. So if that is not the case and there will not be any wolf tenderloin cut and wraped at the butcher, why hunt wolves in September, keeping in mind that Idaho States that wolves are considered big game animals and the law states as such will not be wasted.
Craig,
I have already said, I feel this would be a bad idea, but I would suspect with some advocating this action, they could very well read the same rules as you and I have and go out and purchase the right kind of shells for their guns, again, it would not be a smart idea as I suspect they would get a ticket for illegal harassment of wildlife as well as hunters…
JEFF E, Wolves and Mountain Lions are exempt from harvesting the carcass.” Retrieving meat: Hunters are not required to
retrieve meat from a harvested wolf. Hide and skull
must be physically presented to a Fish and Game
regional office within 5 days of kill.Evidence of Sex: Must be left attached to the hide
of any wolf taken. External evidence of sex (scrotum,
penis, or testicles for males, or vulva for females) must
be left naturally attached to the hide until the mandatory
check requirement has been satisfied. Either sex may be
taken.”
If someone wants a thin crappy summer coat for a mount or rug, I guess they could waste the money to have it done, but they would have to dress it like I explained earlier. A winter coat would be much more full and nicer! In these tempratures hair will start slipping whithin a few hours after an animalis killed. I’ve seen so many Deer or Elk hides ruined because most hunters don’t take the proper care of them immediantly. Which makes sense, because they are trying to get the meat taken care of and the hide is secondary.
Save bears Says:
August 31, 2009 at 6:06 PM
Craig,
I have already said, I feel this would be a bad idea, but I would suspect with some advocating this action, they could very well read the same rules as you and I have and go out and purchase the right kind of shells for their guns, again, it would not be a smart idea as I suspect they would get a ticket for illegal harassment of wildlife as well as hunters…
I have to keep posting Idaho big laws ,so I don’t think they are reading them, easy as it is!
Craig,
All of which says that hunting wolves in September amounts to nothing more than a cull.
I’m not trying to be facetious, I know everything you just said.
My point is that hunting wolves in September is nothing more than a cull and the state should just man up and say that instead of sending a ringer to this site and speak in platitudes’.
JEFF E, I have followed this blog for years probably back in the late 90s. When Ralph had the for Wolves website. Always a great source for information on inviroment and what’s really going on!!!
I’m almost certain that if Idaho required a basic IQ test for wolf permits, there would be about a dozen guys out there tomorrow tracking wolves.
Craig,
i was not referring to you as a ringer.
I was referring to Mark Gamblin from IDFG.
Just wanted to be clear on that
JEFF E, I don’t if you have read many of my posts? I’m an avid Hunter, fisherman, and I do care about the enviroment. I only kill what I eat, so I won’t be buying a Wolf tag. I have many friends who have bought tags and would love nothing more than to shoot a Wolf and have it mounted. That’s there choice, I don’t give them shit about it and they know my stance and the way I hunt and don’t give me shit about it.
I’m no biologist but I have been reading about wolves for a long time. Seems to me they are quite dependent upon one another in a hunt and it takes more than size…. ie it takes skill to hunt as well. So obviously a pup, of say 60 lbs, still needs it’s parent to get through the winter. That is obvious. A hunt is also very dangerous and most wolves suffer injury. so if you are a young inexperienced wolf with a bad injury – do you eat? prob not. that is obvious.
Steve Nadeau is the new guy in charge I think. that will be a huge loss for wolves. Wolves aren’t strays scavenging for meat in the alleyway -they are at the top of the food chain and the bears need them as well.
FYI – the Soldier Mt wolf pups weighed 30-33 lbs. If born around mid-April (most common time for Idaho wolves), they were 4 months old when found dead.
Steve has been the statewide program coordinator since around 2002! Don’t think he’s “new”.
no he was just moved into a new office- forgive me I’ll have to look that up. I know he has been around for awhile.
Ralph & others – canines are afraid of loud noises. Dogs run away during 4th of July fireworks. Shooting a firearm into the air to scare wolves, is not going to hit anything but air.
Ralph – you were part of hazing operations back in 2006 near Stanley, when we were still friends (unlike now) and you know that the Basin Butte wolves moved out of their rez site back in 2006, thus helping save them from being near cattle. So what’s your beef? Would you rather have the Phantom Hill wolves killed tomorrow morning because you want to discredit and disagree with me re. putting up rifle fire to scare them?
If you want the real story about what’s going on, go to my Facebook Page and become a friend, and you can read what’s going on.
Lynne,
I have no problem with you or anyone hazing wolves. I think it works. Right now, I fear there could be all kinds of incidents involving people on all sides of the issue during this upcoming period. Folks need to stay cool.
I try to keep far from Facebook. I don’t need any extra time on the computer. Ralph
Craig – Steve Nadeau switched jobs with Jon Rachael. Neither is new.
Another facet of the cull not talked about is that wolves in sawtooth and lolo zones will be hunted until the end of March or in other words after the breeding season. So how will the public react when pictures of a female wolf a couple weeks short of birthing is brought in for pictures.
So just having the season this early shows that all Idaho cares about is wolf death, wipin’ em out for the cattlemen and cheap thrills for Bubba.
Not any “quality” hunt. Shootin’ up pups and rotting wolf hides.
Quite the Manly sport for the cowboy Butch and his cronies.
For the record, you do not need a wolf tag to be out in the field tomorrow, shooting your pistol or rifle or shotgun. It is your right as an American citizen to own and bear arms. You can target practice anywhere you want on public land. You do not even need a hunting license to target practice. People around here shoot at targets, bottles, cans all the time. What’s with the paranoia being stated on this website, that now the wolf hunters are in the driver’s seat, that anyone else with a firearm, doing a little target practice is going to get arrested?
Lynne, just don’t be up shooting around Marsh creek, I want to enjoy the quit for 5 days of fly fishing. I’ll be driving the loops to watch for Elk in the evenings and up past Yankee fork to see the Salmon spawning. This will be my 5th trip up to Stanley this summer, never saw a wolf.
Lynne,
If you shoot a rifle or shotgun into the air the bullet or shot has to come down somewhere. With a rifle it could be miles from where you are. A shotgun not as far. My advice is if you feel the need to shoot and try to scare or haze the wolves away at least shoot into a high dirt bank making sure the bullet will not travel over the bank. It was stated earlier that this time of year there are many people out hiking, hunting and who knows what else in the field. A shot fired onto the air from a rifle could harm anyone of these people. Like I said, emotions cloud judgement. Take a step back and really think about your actions before you do them.
Oh and if you Target practice pick up your bottles and cans! Seems to be a real problem around the Stanley area, especially from the Stanley Lake turn off to the lower Stanley loop.
Just one clarification on Lynne’s point, Steve Nadeau is no longer the wolf manager Jon Rachael is. This happened a few months ago but recently made the press.
Wolves are not hard to find. There are numerous ways to find wolves and they don’t include lots of walking. Wolves have to eat every few days and often travel great distances while hunting. If there are lots of hunters out looking for them, they will be going past several hunters every day they hunt.
Most of these wolf tag buyers are experienced hunters who have be seeing wolves for several years. They are not first time hunters. They will be going back to places where they have seen wolves in the past. They will be more successful than many of you think. Many Idaho hunters are pretty good at what they do.
I am not opposed to hunting wolves, if they are hunted in fair chase and with seasons that treat them as a valued game animal.
This season is opening far too early, when the pups can’t survive on their own without adults to hunt for them. I have photographs of wolves hunting elk and of the pups showing up after the kill is made in late October. They don’t have all of their adult teeth until December.
I find it kind of phony when the IDFG calls wolf pups “subadults”, but continues to elk calves, “elk calves”, until they are a year old. Changing the terminology is an attempt to justify a biologically unsound early hunt.
I think DOW, and other groups, that tried to stop the wolf hunt today, would have been more successful if they had emphasized the biologically flawed early hunts in Idaho and Montana and not tried to stop hunting altogether.
I don’t know if you guys saw this, but Sun Valley online is running recipes for wolf burgers:
http://blog.sunvalleyonline.com/index.php/greg-farber/2009/08/a-skull-a-pelt-and-wolf-burger/
I received two fast angry posts to my blog after my Idaho IQ comment by the recipe maker in that post.
Scary stuff. Who eats dog?
Mike,
Let me guess Greg “the faker” Farber
Mike close to 2 billion people in the world eat dog, in fact while in the service, it was a prized meat on the menu’s in many of the countries I had occasion to visit…Americans seem to be one of the only cultures that have an aversion to dog meat…
Save Bears –
America is right.
Jeff E –
Yes it was Greg Farber.
Lynne,
Shooting in the air, if something were to happen and somebody was hit, you could be charged with reckless endangerment, if you need to go out and shoot this evening and on Tuesday, make sure you at least have a target, and your using a safe backstop. Keeping and bearing arms, is a bit different than shooting in the air, with no reasonable explanation…I don’t feel there is any paranoia as much as it is concern, that you and other wolf supporters could fall right into what could be considered a trap by Idaho Dept of Game. I would bet, that with the wolf hunt on, they will be checking every single person they can find in the field on Tuesday..you can bet law enforcement will be pretty strong tomorrow and if your targeting specific areas, you could be charged with wildlife as well as hunter harassment…
Mike,
Native Americans used to eat canine meat, The Cheyenne Dog Soldiers considered it a part of their menu as did many other native American cultures, I guess you mean White Anglo Saxon Americans had it right?
As far as America being right, I would think there are a majority of other cultures around the world that would strongly disagree…
Lynne-
I was told by a third party a few weeks ago that there was an informal meeting of law enforcement officers from several agencies and that you were one of the subjects of discussion.
Be careful this week. Handcuffs are very uncomfortable.
Lynne, I would caution against shooting in the air to scare wolves as well. I don’t know how many people will be out hunting but it could be very dangerous.
Did anyone notice that picture with the little kids holding protest signs? Absolutely shameful when parents do that with their kids. They need to think for themselves.
You know what, I’ll go up and Hunt Wolves with my video camera and regular camera this weekend for the 5 days I’m there just for an experiment! I know 4th of July Creek or Hardin Creek should have some wolves. I’ll hunt like I do for Elk, bugling, cow calling, wearing elk in estrus urine and see if I can video a Wolf! I’ll let you all know what happens! This should be intresting!
We are all anxious to hear about it Craig! 🙂
Well, if Butch Otter’s state Fish and Game law enforcement folks have been huddling plotting against Lynne – that just shows you the depths of depravity in this state. while wolves are poisoned in Ditto Flat, the Boys Club huddles to find ways to take out a wolf advocate … The have become enablers of the likes of Ron Gillette. They should resign in disgrace ( You too Mark Gamblin and whoever else is out there). Like mini-CIA “spooks”. Pathetic.
Carter Neimeyier told me that any pelts taken now would be worthless.
He thought any reasonable wolf hunt should begin no sooner than November.
It not just that it is hot, the wolves have their summer coat still.
++Native Americans used to eat canine meat, The Cheyenne Dog Soldiers considered it a part of their menu as did many other native American cultures, I guess you mean White Anglo Saxon Americans had it right?++
Humans used to eat each other too before that. Doesn’t mean it was the right thing to do.
Mike,
Eating human flesh, has never been a mainstream acceptable practice, it was practiced by a few aboriginal tribes, but was never a wide spread practice even by the native Americans, where is, the consumption of canine meat is an acceptable practice in many cultures. What you consider wrong, is not necessarily wrong in the majority of the cultures around the world, whether you would like to believe so or not..and by you condemning those who are different then you, you are showing your racial as well as moral biases…
Before you condemn those different from you and your morals, you might do some research…
By the way, the tribes that practiced the consumption of human flesh did not do it as nourishment, they practiced it for empowerment over their enemy’s and a showing of respect for their enemies…
Lynn, Ken, KT: I have been busy with my other duties and am trying to reserve my comments for issues that I can contribute factual information to.
It’s the nature of a passionate controversy like this one that there is precious little trust for comments from polar ends of the spectrum….but I don’t have any desire to “bait” anyone and my participation is not manipulated by my superiors. I said in my first post that you will be the judge of how well I represent the IDFG (State) policies and science. With that, I have not heard a conclusion from the Ashland Lab on the cause of death for the 6 wolves recently found.
I also need to add that Ralph, Save Bears and others are providing sound counsel about resisting indiscriminate shooting in the field as suggested in this thread. There are too many risks to personal and public safety. This would create an unnecessary dangerous environment for ALL concerned.
I will continue to participate in these discussions.
This is going to get a lot more heated before it calms down.
That’s good.
Yeah Mark: Let’s separate put the “mature” savory ones from the unsavory ones.
Coming from a department that wantsto kill pelicans, that inflicts a wolf season on pups, and that persecuted Dave Parrish for speaking out against a wind farm that one of Butch’s andSen. Bert Bracketts’ buddies wants, you have no credibility, and have a hidden agenda.
That right there is part of your agenda: Make there be “credible” commentors. Make yourself (and thus IDFG and thus Butch and his ilk) somehow be the voices of reason, the “Father Figures”. Again, pathetic.
And here’s a question Mark: Are state taxpayers paying your salary to spy on us? Are you working while reading and commenting here?
Craig- rest assured, the wolves I see in the Cape Horn area are not any place where there is stream enough to be fly fishing. I am out at Cape Horn/Marsh Creek nearly every day. You can fish at your heart’s content in the Marsh Creek canyon. There are no wolves there.
Larry – I am well aware of the discussion that took place in Stanley among wolf managers, Actually, I think Brian and Ken were more of the discussion than myself, the pair having taken off after Wildlife Service agent Jeff Ashmead over in Willow Creek earlier in the summer. I saw Ashmead that morning, and went the other direction. I’ve been dealing with WS for a decade, and Custer County’s version of law enforcement for just as long. Give me some credit for knowing what’s legal and what’s not.
For those worried about bullets falling out of the sky onto a hiker or biker, perhaps you should call Wildlife Services and complain about the rifle shots fired by agents in Pole Creek a couple of mornings ago, to scare wolves.
Armchair quarterbacks — Why don’t you get out of your chair and get on the ground and come to the Sawtooth Zone and see for yourself what is going on.
Ralph says,
“Carter NNiemeyertold me that any pelts taken now would be worthless.
He thought any reasonable wolf hunt should begin no sooner than November.
It not just that it is hot, the wolves have their summer coat still.”
Mark Gamblin says,
“Pelts taken in September or October will be valued by many hunters.”
also Mark Gamblin says,
”
Denning occures in April, whelping occurs in mid-April, after the wolf hunting season is over.”
What about the pregnant female shot on the 31st of March?
“Pups are weaned and hunting with adults by Sept. 1. ”
Pups are accompaning the adults and just starting being taught how to hunt. NOT hunting with the pack.
kt,
You might be being a bit hard on Mark. I don’t agree with him on a lot of these things just like you don’t, but I did encourage him to comment whenever.
When I was a professor folks liked to try to nail me by saying “you wrote that letter while you were on the job.” Well professors don’t work 9 to 5. I know you don’t either.
Jeff E,
If I was setting a regulated wolf season, it would be about Nov. 15 to Feb. 1.
Lynne,
If I was still in Idaho, I would be happy to meet up with you and document with the video camera the first day of the Idaho hunt… As far as wildlife services and a private citizen doing the same thing, you might want to think about who they are going to prosecute if bullets start “Falling from the Sky” it certainly is not going to be the wildlife service agents…so that leaves?
Take care and watch your back…
Ralph,
I would second that.
And on the subject of the Sawtooth and Lolo zones Mr Gamblin is just plain being disingenuous and spouting the party line. It’s a cull and nothing more.
Why not just grow a set and say this is what it is and this is why. At least then the discussion could focus on the why of it instead of the platitudes.
Yes, I find it hard to say the Sept and maybe to mid-October part of the hunt is anything other than a cull.
The Commission made it clear that they are bringing the number of wolves way down by hook or crook.
I think it is pretty obvious that the hunts are just culls in both states.
JeffE and Ralph: So again, the only way Gamblin would be able to sign his name and IDFG was if he was propagandizing for Otter/the Party. His role is to spy and try to shape Opinions – as he just did several comments back: There are “credible” commentors, and there are then others. I think his time would be better spent figuring out how to oil pelican eggs – or whatever the latest assault on wildlife and decency FG is up to these days. IF Gamblin was an FG person giving an honest opinion here, he would NEVER be able to use his own name.
His OTHER purpose is likely to be a spy and CHILLING presence to discourage any anonymous FG or other agency staff that might be commenting. Make them skittish, or afraid to reveal info that perhaps only agency folks might be privy to.
I also wonder how many hunters plan on shelling out the money to have the pelts properly processed even when they are in prime. I suspect most will just keep the skull to eventually rattle around in the shed out back.
I wonder if that meets the litmus test of not wasting a big game animal as required by law
Save Bears –
Sorry, there are some things I don’t find acceptable, and eating dogs/cats and whale are three of them. It has nothing to do with race, which is a completely ridiculous accusation on your part.
Mark – IDFG obviously doesn’t want anyone trying to use firearms to scare “game” animals (that includes wolves now) to try to prevent the animals from being sitting ducks for the “sportsmen” that are the #1 important factor to IDFG. The “sportsmen” can ride around in pickup trucks, have two guys leaning over the cab with loaded rifles, and fire away at coyotes, ground squirrels, badgers, or anything that IDFG has decided is a varmint or only good for target practice. If you talk to a CO, you will get a different answer from each one on whether it’s legal to shoot a coyote or squirrel from a vehicle. As for shooting a wolf from a vehicle, or be any other illegal means, there probably isn’t a judge in Idaho who would convict a “sportsmen” for doing this, thus the case would never go to court.
I don’t think the F&G said anything except a Wolf hunt is going to happen! Isn’t Hunting… culling the Herd, ect? What else would you call hunting? It’s culling game animals for manangement to meet herd/pack numbers! It’s a tool used to manage wildlife numbers!
Mike, it may be ridiculous to you, but I find it perfectly acceptable, if you don’t condone the eating of whales, then how about the American Eskimo tribes? Your saying what they have done for hundreds of generations is wrong? What you find unacceptable only targets those who you disagree with, which just happen to be other races and cultures…makes me want to say, hmmmm
Mike I am sorry, but the same attitude your are exhibiting is the reason for the justification of the eradication of the native American tribes when the Europeans came to the new world..what they had done for generations, what they worshiped for generations and what they believed for generations…sounds pretty much the same to me reading it on the screen..but heck, I am all for giving much of the land back to them and trying to figure out how to live together, the white anglo’s have proven they can’t manage it properly!
Lynne Stone, I know that happens but “true Sporstsman” do not condone road Hunting. I take offense to you using it as all hunters do that! I pride myself in hunting off trails or roads and probably harvest more animals because of it and enjoy my experience in the wild that much more! But to lump all hunters into that catagory is very wrong and only makes you seem more against all Hunters who are ethical! That will not put any of them like me on your side saying things like that!
If the wolf season was like Raulph stated Nov. 1st – Feb. 1st I think you would see more wolves killed. It’s a lot easier to track and see wolves in the middle of the winter, up here anyway. Not to mention hunting country that is accesible by snow machines. It would not be nearly as hard to take a wolf in the winter, just find elk wintering grounds and you’ll find the wolves close by. It’s been that way for the last 3-4 winters anyway.
The “sportsmen” can ride around in pickup trucks, have two guys leaning over the cab with loaded rifles, and fire away at coyotes, ground squirrels, badgers, or anything that IDFG has decided is a varmint or only good for target practice.
Is that legal in Idaho to hunt that way?
From my understanding of the law, hunting wolves this way would not be legal because they are classified as a game animal and in most states it is not legal to shoot a game animal from a vehicle nor is it legal to shot them from the road…
Prowolf,
No it’s not legal in Idaho. I’ve seen it happen here though. Actually it was during deer and elk season and my son and I were driving up to the trailhead to hike down the ridge for an evening hunt. After seeing these guys we decided not to hunt that area. I really don’t consider these types to be sportsmen, but they sure give real sportsmen a bad name.
Craig,
I think the way the word cull is being used here is “cull: to reduce the numbers,” as opposed to hunting, taken to mean “take the surplus for the year with the expectation of about the same number at the same time next year.”
I could have shot the biggest Mule Deer I have seen in my life off a road last year! There was a thin line of trees and a meadow, I got out of my truck walked to the edge and he walked into the timber. I could have shot him from my window of the truck but I do have ethics! I did try to track him but only jumped him a half hour later and he got away! I was driving back from an area where I was Elk hunting going back to camp! Now I know there would be losers who would have shot the Buck from the road, but I’m not one of them so don’t catagorize ALL Hunters in the “Sporstman” catagory as poachers,unethical hunters, slobs ect….
Pro Wolf,
That is not even legal in our state for varmints. You would get a hefty fine shooting out of a vehicle of even off of a road in Wyoming not matter the animal.
Jeff E. – you and Craig are both correct. Because wolf predation has driven elk production and recruitment significantly below what we would have with lower wolf predation, we are not meeting our elk management objectives. Consequently we have reduced elk hunting opportunity for the public below what habitat is capable of supporting. The wolf hunt has multiple objectives. Reducing the number of wolves in those areas (Lolo and Sawtooth Zones) to increase elk production and recruitment is one objective. Another legitimate management objective for this public wildlife resource (Idaho wolves) is offering hunting opportunity consistent with the state wolf management plan that is commited to a healthy and viable (sustainable) distribution of wolves across Idaho. Those are the primary objectives of the wolf hunting season that will start tomorrow morning in the Lolo and Sawtooth Zones.
Ralph Maughan Says:
August 31, 2009 at 10:11 PM
Craig,
I think the way the word cull is being used here is “cull: to reduce the numbers,” as opposed to hunting, taken to mean “take the surplus for the year with the expectation of about the same number at the same time next year.”
How can you guess the next years numbers? Giving the unpredictability of winters, mange,poaching, ect? I was horrible in Algebra just curious, how do they get that number?
Craig,
Fish and Game does that for big game, and they don’t just guess. They rarely get it exact, but it obviously is possible approximately despite the factors you mention.
I think maybe you misunderstood me.
Mark Gamblin (IDFG) , since you are her what has happenened in unit 27? It has always been a good unit and I hunted it for 9 days last year never saw an Elk, Deer, or even a track! Saw a lot of Wolf tracks , had Wolves Bark/howl at us in the timber by Kindell meadows! Hunted Whiskey Creek nothing there also!
Ahhh I see Ralph, just curious how they went about it! I understand ther is know whay to be exact but was curious how they got the guesstimation!
Save Bears –
I have no personal ethical complaints over tribes eating whale for survival. My whale comment was directed at whaling via fleet.
And I hate to tell you this Save Bears, but some people have their own morals and ethics. Two of mine are not eating, or condoning the use of cats and dogs for food.
Once again I have to kind of question your line of thought. You really don’t make any sense, and your accusations are off-the-chart goofy.
Mark Gamblin: What you are spewing – the nonsense about the wolves being the problem with the elk is called in Unit Xedexy -X is called Propaganda. You are serving as a propagandist and a spy.
As for the wolf hunt I am not one to say right or wrong for sure. I can say that I support the opinions of the bioligists that have done the studies and research for this project. I do not know Mark Gamblin of idfg, but he seems to be a lot more professional and respectful than kt. One good thing to keep in mind when you think about talking so disrespectful to someone is that for the most part, most people are just want what you want even if it’s not the same. Most of us are out here wanting what’s best for the world. I don’t think that putting someone down for there opinion is right in a so-called civilized world that everyone thinks they are from you would just try to educate yourself and others. That means a little more listening and reading and not just all talk.
Oh one more thing. I have to agree with mike on this one. save bears it seems you are just on here to attack the guy. He has been pretty respectful about other cultures. All he said was that he didn’t agree with it and that he did not choose to participate in events such as those. He didn’t say that anyone who chose to do so were in any way a bad human being or whatever your little agenda was going with it.
Craig – I havn’t discussed unit 27 with Region 7 staff recently, can’t offer insight tonight on your experience last year. I’ll check with with the Regional Wildlife Manager and report back tomorrow if there is interest.
Richard: Gamblin is charged with putting a Butch Otter IDFG political agenda spin into a Blog, and spying on opinions expressed and issues raised. That is propagandizing, and it’s using governement resources to essentially spy. I am proud to be disrespectful of such a person, if you consider my remarks “disrespectful”, that’s fine with me. Sounds like you like to be brainwashed and led around by Big Brother Butch.
To be honest I don’t have much knowledge on any of “Big Brother Butch’s” opinions. As far as putting his opinions into blogs I don’t see this really happening. I see Mark putting quite a bit of professional beliefs of the idfg. Spying seems to be a little over the top. I think that it is improtant for them to know what people think of the situation. I also am here to say I have talked to a lot of bioligists that work for the idfg. All of the ones that I have talked to have the same opinion which it seems mark is representing the agency very well. I trust people who are educated and practicing the proper techniques out in the field everyday who concluded the results of this project. I also live in North Idaho and read a lot on the subject. I don’t know how much experience you have on the subject kt, but it seems you’re a little to aggresive to even sound reasonable.
I agree with Richard, you guys have I.D.F.G. participating in your blog here sharing a valid opinion, and it is worthy of some respect..
I know the Sawtooth Zone well, and mark is sharing the truth with you folks, I’ve seen people banned from this blog for doing less than kt is doing..
The elk in those four hunt units are in a serious depredation bind in my opinion..And wolves are causing it..
Craig……If you didn’t see “even an elk or deer track”, what do you think the wolves would be doing in an area devoid of prey?
I have been reading these posts, and I think people have to remember who Mark Gambin works for. He may appear to be receptive to the opposing viewpoints of pro-wolf interests, but he works for a wildlife management dept that caters to the hunters agenda- period! Remember who set the tone early with his political remark about killing a wolf for himself.
Mark (IDFG)
Please take a few minutes to elaborate on the overall effects on the biodiversity of a watershed and ecosystem when wolves are removed from it. How does that removal affect the mesopredators, beaver, coyotes, lions, voles, riparian vegetation, fish……..etc.
Is ecosystem integrity a factor considered by IDFG before removing wolves, lions or bears?
Which wildlife and plant communities benefit and which are negatively impacted?
One other thing- I find the language and hatred displayed by some of the hunters in Idaho to be very offensive. They will be happy with pride to orphan pups and kill pregnant wolves. The problem is- you can never fill the hole of hatred- it will only grow bigger like a cancer. IDFG could care less if innocent pups are killed. Just kill those wolves- right Mark?
Mike,
I don’t feel I am off the chart, you plainly stated, “who eats dog meat” I gave you an example..
You are questioned on your statement, then you say the person questioning is “goofy” because they can give you examples..then you throw in a qualifier which didn’t come up in the conversation….the whaling fleet! well I agree 100% on that point…
Because you don’t agree with what other cultures eat, does not make it wrong and you right.
Richard,
When he asked the question, I simply pointed out that lots of people do it, then his statement about “America is right” is what touched it off, I could really care less if he chooses to not eat canine meat, but because he does not, does not make it wrong that others do…
Thanks Lynne for the correct info on steve nadeau
The Butch Otter Fish and game is not worthy of respect. They are shackled to industry (livestock and SFW-type hunters). Any Fish and Game person who actually speaks up for wildlife – rather than marketing death these days – has to fear for their job. Once again, Gamblin is here to manipulate opinion, and promote propaganda of the state.
or intimidate…
kt,
I really don’t care about your conspiracy theories of a man behind the curtain manipulating (Otter-FWS-Ranchers who ever) I want elk in the Sawtooth Zone to not end up like elk in unit 27 have, gone.. I used to hunt U27 years ago and though rugged as all hell, it was a productive hunt..Not so any longer..The nice thing about that unit your SFW wimps avoided that rough terrain.. The majority of the Sawtooth Zone also is very steep rugged country..I live in and have eyes on that country and Gamblin is being truthful about the predation by wolves of elk in this country, agenda’s and manipulative rancher boogey men regardless..
SR25 Stoner: hate to say it but wolves are part of the natural landscape. They do move elk around unfortunately for you, but they are actually increasing the health of the herd. Elk are not supposed to be a herd of cows… There are also other reasons that are related to global warming that you may not agree with. For my child and future grandchildren, I wish you could see the larger picture…so that they can see the whole ecological landscape, not just cows.
I know the hunting community in these 3 states can shoot, but can they read. The elk report that was just posted clearly shows that wolves have not decimated the elk herds. THis is political manipulation at it’s lowest.
I respectfully disagree gline..” Wolves mustn’t be coddled if we hope to balance them with modern ecosystems”. I know elk move around due to several reasons including wolves, and those several other natural reasons prior to wolves never gave me the impression elk were lazy cattle easily harvested for my table.. I’ve had great success harvesting elk, mostly in thick brush with a 30/30..The point is as mark said..
“wolf predation has driven elk production and recruitment significantly below what we would have with lower wolf predation, we are not meeting our elk management objectives. Consequently we have reduced elk hunting opportunity for the public below what habitat is capable of supporting. The wolf hunt has multiple objectives. Reducing the number of wolves in those areas (Lolo and Sawtooth Zones) to increase elk production and recruitment is one objective. Another legitimate management objective for this public wildlife resource (Idaho wolves) is offering hunting opportunity consistent with the state wolf management plan that is commited to a healthy and viable (sustainable) distribution of wolves across Idaho. Those are the primary objectives of the wolf hunting season that will start tomorrow morning in the Lolo and Sawtooth Zones.”
Obviously as you can see I am not rushing out to “get my wolf”, I have better things to do.. I ride that country and see it from the saddle, in my experience of hunting, packing, and just enjoying that piece of country, as well as watching elk for four decades, I just do not see at all what your talking about.. They have always moved around and still do, with less calves and bulls..
When there are 70 cow elk standing here in winter and not one calf, and two spike bulls, at best over the last 7 years, some ones science is flawed…
When it is so bad, that I as a hunter, stopped taking elk not due to lack of my capability’s of finding elk, but due to a visible pattern of elk herds being unbalanced..And having for years as you being unsatisfied with I.D.F.G. because I felt FWS was the shadow man jerking their chain, Now Gamblin has come out, and yes somebody has authorized it likely..
On this rare occasion I agree with them, my eyes for years have told me what his science is telling now, out in the open finally..
There never has been any such thing as and easy elk for this hunter..And I consider the implication to be and insult not just to the hunter, but to the truth about elk. It causes my mind to question your true hunting knowledge..
I don’t know about conspiracy theories either but I did hear Jim Unswerth (PhD, biologist for IDFG) on radio the other day mention the effect wolves were having on “our livestock” around the state. Perhaps just a slip of the tongue but it does seem to betray a mind set which favors an industry over wildlife.
Thank you for letting me share my perspective, I’m burning daylight here, I’ll see you fellas when the sun goes down, time to ride..
Well wolves are opportunists, and slow elk and mountain maggots are a lot easier to catch than elk..lol…suits me, I like elk..
I see that DOW will not consider delisting wolves till the rockies has up to 5,000 wolves is this true ?
bambi,
That was what I heard on one of the news reports last night, which is far different that what was said, when the program started out…
I don’t know where the report on elk populations were postitve for Idaho, but that is definitely an invalid statement. The idfg studies done this year shows a declining elk herd. As far as how important it is if wolves are managed and the impact on the ecosystem. I do not condone on the extinction, but in the science community has stated that the wolf is NOT a keystone species and an ecosystem can stand fine without them. Idaho’s habitat and wildlife has thrive without very many wolves for years. Show me a study that proves otherwise it would be very interesting. Yes idfg do have guidelines on how they manage the wildlife. There is actual laws in which they must abide by, not some “hidden” agenda as so many accuse. If so many people are so independent and well opinionated why mind if someone comes on here to put there opinion up such as Mark Gamblin. It sounds like you aren’t giving much fact just accusations to people who have a different opinion. Oh for save bears yea sorry maybe I misunderstood it seemed like you were a little aggresive with mike. He came off to me that he was just stating he wasn’t much for participating in such events. Oh well no big deal I guess. In my opinion eating wolves or not eating wolves wouldn’t make a difference to me. The law states that when you shoot a wolf you do NOT have to salvage the meat. All you have to do is provide the hide and skull within five days of kill to idfg.
Bambi…. A lot more science is available now as compared to 14 years ago when the reintroduction took place. Population numbers need to be modified taking into account depredations, disease, illegal killings, prey base etc.
It would be like sending 100,000 troops to Afghanistan and staying with that number throughout the war regardless of new developments.
I haven’t seen the 5,000 figure associated with any of the pro wolf groups.
Richard…..”wolves are NOT a keystone species and ecosystems do fine without them”
WOW! I wouldn’t even know where to begin to point you, there’s so much science available to dispute that statement…..Start with YNP.
What do you consider a “keystone species”??
JerryB,
The lead attorney on this injunction case made the statement when he was interviewed by the Missoula News Station last night…
I don’t think there could be 5000 wolves in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming. There isn’t the prey base.
Right now wolf density in the area inhabited by wolves is generally pretty high. More wolves are needed overall, however, but that would be only with Oregon, Washington, Utah and Colorado added to the mix.
I hope the delisting goes down primarily because I hate that DPS that gives the wolves no protection in Utah, especially; and only state protection in Oregon and Washington. However, I have heard the ODFG has been very good so far, giving one problem pair of wolves 5 chances, although they are going to have to be shot now. Fortunately, there are other wolves nearby that have completely stayed away from livestock and ODFG pretty much guards them.
Richard,
The provision that you only have to present hide and skull is also a concern to me, most of the time, you have to provide evidence of sex as well as not waste meat when it comes to a “Game Animal”
My comments to Mike were not directed at his aversion to canine meat, it was the fact he inferred that he was right and the rest of the world that do use canine meat for consumption was wrong. Lots of things get eat around the world, that would turn our stomachs here in America, and it is not up to me to tell them they are wrong because they use it for nourishment..
Heck I am a hunter and have friends that absolutely hate venison, but they don’t say I am wrong because I enjoy it…
Ralph…… is there public info available on the Oregon wolves and the pending “control” action?
Lots of mention of the Mexican gray wolf in this
http://www.lcsun-news.com/ci_13209840?IADID=Search-www.lcsun-news.com-www.lcsun-news.com
And here’s a good piece from the Santa Fe paper on Aldo Leopoold’s historic home in N.M.: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/N/NM_LEOPOLD_LEGACY_NMOL-?SITE=NMSAN&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Jerry,
I don’t know. I got private email.
This pair of wolves keep coming back to the same farm and has killed 5 times now. ODFW keeps harassing them, but with deceasing success. Fortunately, there are breeding pairs of wolves nearby that pretty much stay in the Wilderness and completely out of livestock.
Jery B,
Like you I am blown away by some anti-wolfers claims that wolves are NOT a keystone species. I have argued this point before with others on this blog. It’s like they have a whole separate set of scientific facts (probably from the Bush administration school of evil) The only comforting thought is that they may be using this “science” to do battle in the courtroom. They won’t get far with that.
“Lords of Nature””…Life In A Land of Great Predators.
A very well done documentary about wolves and lions (keystone species) and their role in revitalizing nature.
Anyone in the Missoula area…..Sept 3rd at 6:30 at the Roxy Theater 718 S Higgins.
Panel discussion follows with Caroline Sime, Becky Weed, Mike Leach, Renee Van Kamp and Mark Hebblewhite.
Sponsored by Wildlife Watchers, Western Watersheds Project and Yellowstone Country Guardians.
It’s FREE!!!!
I went to a showing of Lords of Nature in Portland and it is a well done film . . very interesting and professionally done with no soap opera stuff in it.
The 5000 number was based on science to keep this particular species healthy. Compare that with millions of cattle and hundreds of thousands of Elk….
Confusion gets the best of me sometimes- Hunting the existing wolves will break up packs causing more livestock depredation, but letting the wolves tripple in numbers will be better? The latter doesnt seem healthy for either side.
“Fortunately, there are other wolves nearby that have completely stayed away from livestock and ODFG pretty much guards them.”
That doesn’t suprise me that they are being guarded in EO. They are pretty much hated over there by most. All of the ones up to this point (last 10 years) did not have a good survival opportunity.
If genetic diversity is going to evolve from the 1700 existing wolves in Wyoming Montana and Idaho, here is a thought– why not transplant 330 wolves from Montana and Idaho into Washington Oregon Colorado and Utah where suitable habitat exists and postpone delisting untill there are 5000 wolves in the entire area?
I am particularly curious as to what IF & G agent Gamblin would say about the perspective (stated in Martin Nie’s “Beyond Wolves”- The Politics of Wolf Recovery and Management”) of renowned Alaska trained wolf scientist Dr. Gordon Haber who has been a long time critic of the “farming” approach to wildlife management — the belief that northern wolf populations like all major wildlife populations can be and should be harvested to their full reproductive potential:
“The same extraordinary sentience that is so integral to their basic biology also provides an ETHICAL (my emphasis) reason for not allowing [wolves] to be harvested and for considering remedial short-term control only in the rarest of circumstances, when there are solid, irrefutable biological and cost benefit arguments and other reasonable alternatives. To treat them otherwise is wrong. Such higher standing is now generally accorded to other creatures of obvious sentience, including whales, dolphins, gorillas, and chimpazees, and it is time to extend it fully to wolves.”
Two Stories indicating that the wolf hunt is slow.
We’re not even 12 hours into the hunt and the press says it’s going slow. A half day does not make a trend and people are not required to report right away. They are given 24 hours to report kills.
Wolf hunters report slow going Tuesday as Idaho opens its first wolf season
Idaho’s wolf hunt season off to a slow start
Val Bit, So you think it would be good to leave the wolves alone and as defenders fight the cause and the six years it will take to acheive the 5000 wolves, all will be fine?
Mark-
I would like Idaho to adopt some of the fair chase rules I have seen in The Yukon and Alberta, Out on the Dempster Highway near the Arctic Circle in the Yukon, hunting is closed for 8 days when the Porcupine Caribou herd is migrating across the Highway. When it is open, hunters have to be at least 100 meters from the road before they can shoot. In Alberta where there are some monster Bighorn Rams, hunters have to hunt at least 1 kilometer away from the road. Any animal taken within 1 kilometer of the road results in a citation for the hunter.
When I drive in the Little Lost and Pahsimeroi areas of Idaho, Pronghorn panic and run when they see my vehicle so I know someone has been shooting at them from theirs.
A hundred yard rule for shooting near a road in Idaho would deter poachers and give the animals a little more respect, which they desperately need. This could include shooting from near ATVs as well.
Hunters today are equipped with ATVs, snowmobiles,satellite radios, rangefinders, radio-collar receivers, GPS units and rifles that will kill at 600+ yards. Some of them have night vision goggles. The rules need to be adjusted to provide some chance for animals to elude the hunters.
I don’t know about Oregon(haven’t heard any news from that quarter), but as I’ve already mentioned elsewhere, tow different packs have apparently established themselves in north central and northeastern Washington State respectively. Wlves move around, naturally, Bambi.
Anne G
Ralph:
Wolves are considered endangered in Washington State, but that hasn’t stopped at least one idiot from shooting one, skkinning it, and sending the skin to wildlife officials here, via FedEx. One of the reasons I’m opposed to this wolf hunt has to do with the fact that, while there is a relatively viable population of wolves in Idaho to protect genetic diversity(if the nearly 1000 count is accurate), this kind of hunting may ultimately hurt that(not to mention the problem of fragmented packs, etc.). Because if wolves are hunted, there may be a much greater residual mortailty(e.g. orphaned wolf pups who don’t survive), than the IDFG and itsupporters are apparently counting on.
Anne G
catbestland:
I find it hard to believe that anyone could get up and say that wolves are not a “keystone species” in the environments where they exisst. I wonder if these people would care to give us some verifiable facts to support their case?
Anne G
bambi,
After seeing all the law suits and troubles in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming, I don’t think those other states will want anything to do with having wolves reintroduced.
B-TT, I was just triing to show a compromise and save a few wolves in the process. Reasoning this issue is never going to happen. I just dont think that this issue is fair to the states supporting wolves at this point. Others need to partake in the endeavor if DOW insist on having it their way. Or leave those wolf sustaining states alone to manage wild game.
Anne Gilbert,
The delisting rule split WA and Oregon down the middle. The Twisp, WA pack is considered to be a fullly endangered species pack. The northeast Washington Pack is in delisted territory, but protected by WA state law, which seems to be OK for now.
Washington State is in fact in the middle of coming up with state law (or is it a rule?), that would set up an elaborate process for having wolves around the state, although not in high numbers.
Ralph:
Re the Washington State wolf packs: From the information I have had available to me, I thought both packs were considered “endangere” by Washington State, at least. I should think they would be, since they are the only two packs there. As for the state itself, whatever they come up with will be a long, arduous process that winds its way through the Legislature and may not actually go anywhere for years, depending on the political climate and the concern with things like the economy.
Anne g
Ken-
That wolf unit in North Idaho has a quota of 27 wolves. It is going to be easy to fill . The season lasts from Sept. 1 to Mar. 31. Hunters will only need to kill one wolf /week. It only took a few minutes this morning to get wolf #1 .
After reading Rocky’s article on the first wolf killed, they will all be rushing to the nearest sporting goods store to buy an injured coyote call. There is no reason to start the season so early when pups(IDFG’s so- called Sub-Adults) are still dependent upon the adults. Wolves are easy to call and kill.
That wolf killed today will shed hair until the hunter has a bald rug. Pups have an even more worthless pelt this time of year. The season shouldn’t start until at least November.
If you read the delisting rule, Anne, there is a map that shows the boundaries of the delisted area. Maybe 40% of WA is delisted.
Ralph:
I couldn’t read the delisting rule, because I never had access to it, with the sources I had(which were mostly news reports, and the news reports didn’t say anything about this).
Anne G
Ann,
The delisting rule and alot of good information is available at the USFWS Western Gray Wolf Project website.
http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/
The specific delising rule is at the top of the page under”Federal Register Notice: Final Rule …..”
“Richard: Gamblin is charged with putting a Butch Otter IDFG political agenda spin into a Blog, and spying on opinions expressed and issues raised. That is propagandizing, and it’s using governement resources to essentially spy. I am proud to be disrespectful of such a person”
kt,
Do you have even ONE shred of facts to back up that statement?? Or would this be more of your normal spew, puke, blather, bitch, lie, crap??
The only thing missing in your tirades on this thread are the normal “public land ranchers are responsible for EVERYTHING bad” sermon — or did I miss it?
Like someone said above, I wonder just how you continue to stay on here — anyone else would be long gone.
I am not so sure on how viable the source will be for the statement of wolves not being a keystone species, but wikipedia states this. I don’t think they are very biased but hey I was just getting some things out there. I am not on here to make up random lies. Sorry I didn’t state the source google grey wolf and its up towards the top.
Ralph–in the course of writing a couple of books on wildlife, I developed a lot of respect for biologists working for state fish and game agencies. So I can’t imagine biologists with the ID, WY or MT fish & game depts. being comfortable with wolf hunts that would cause long term harm to the species.
I also realize that it’s politically appointed fish & game commissioners that set the rules for hunting wolves and other critters.
Are the proposed wolf hunts going to have long term negative affects on wolf populations?
Dave,
Very good question!
I just put up a new post asking folks to ponder questions like this.
I’m going to close this thread now.