More on the recent killing of pups in Wyoming
The USFWS is effectively keeping wolves from dispersing into Colorado and Utah with its heavy-handed approach.
Wolf pups slain after packs kill livestock.
By Angus M. Thuermer Jr. Jackson Hole News & Guide
Comments
“Solutions proposed by conservation groups, such as using flagging and guard dogs to scare wolves, won’t work in some open-range situations, Jimenez said. Killing wolves is the only solution, he said.
“In areas where there’s chronic depredation, now we stop it very quickly,” he said.
That happens regardless of whether the responsible pack has gotten in trouble for only the first time, he said.
“It’s not necessarily this pack, but this area,” he said of the logic behind speedy killing.”
Hey, could I do the same thing on the west side of Salt Lake? Could I just randomly do a beat down on a guy that looks like a gang banger just ’cause he is in an area where gang bangers have been in the past? Could I? And maybe get FWS to help?
I do not believe that killing is the only solution. These wolves should have not been killed. I posted an article a few weeks ago about how some are using donkeys to protect their cattle from predators and it’s apparently working. I believe they are doing this in Brazil to protect their cattle from jaguars. Jimenez is a scumbag.
was it this donkey ??
http://www.horseriding.ro/equestrian-centre-news/wolf-attack-on-donkey/
http://magblog.audubon.org/smart-asses-are-donkeys-rancher%E2%80%99s-best-weapon-protecting-cattle-jaguars
http://hubpages.com/hub/Livestock-Guardian-Animals
http://www.solacefarm.com/protection.htm
jon,
Perhaps you would be kind enough, with your expert knowledge of smart asses er, donkeys, how many it would take to protect say two hundred cows in an open range area from wolves, and exactly where and how they would be deployed on a 24 hour basis? You might want to account for calving time, with a couple extra donkeys just in case. We are waiting for your plan.
WM, your tone sure makes me want to give you a plan alright, although it might not be the kind you anticipated. I can certainly understand the need to kill a problematic wolf before it can teach others bad behavior; but, killing 16 wolves, including 10 pups absolutely does not fit into that mold. This is an abomination that disgraces and discredits everyone involved with it, including Jimenez, Wyoming, and whatever walking filth rancher that wanted it done. Killing pups just out of the den truly is a scumbag sort of thing to do and people who defend it are just as filthy as the actual perpetrators.
mikarooni,
I think you misinterpreted my comment. I don’t particularly condone taking out these two packs, in fact I really didn’t comment on it at all.
I did, however, offer a sarcastic (hence tone to you)suggestion to Jon regarding his knowledge (or lack thereof) on how effective one or more donkeys would be in protecting range animals. It won’t work. And, before you go off on that angle, I am not a supporter of range livestock on public lands, and think the laws should be changed to eliminate grazing permits, as well as strict enforcement of the ones that have been issued.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the hunter lied about how much that wolf truly weighed just to claim that he had killed the biggest wolf ever. The biggest wolf ever killed I believe was in Alaska in 1939. There was also supposedly a wolf shot in Bulgaria that weighed close to 180 pounds. I believe there was also a big wolf killed some place in Russia as well. With so many stories and weights going around about this wolf, it is likely the person who killed it lied about how much it truly weighed. If it weighed 197 pounds or the 235 pounds some claim, why haven’t we heard about it? Unless a biologist weighs it, don’t believe anything you hear.
WM, you have no idea if it will work or not. It might work in some cases and it might not in others. I was just given options. The first solution should not always be killing. Donkeys have infact worked in preventing depredations from predators for some people.
interesting idea, i am unsure thou how well a small donkey would do against 5 or 6 wolves this size thou
http://www.huntandtell.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/bigbadwolf.jpg
would be interesting to watch whichever way it went 🙂
so now we are pulling out photoshop
I have heard so many stories about that picture, but I believe the hunter who killed it supposedly said the wolf was 230 pounds or something like that.
I have read at least 8 different accounts of who/where killed that wolf. That picture is in our local grocery store captioned that it was killed in Sun Valley while attacking sheep.
That wolf was shot in Northern Alberta. It is a very large wolf what it weight, whose knows — who cares.
The picture has been on several hunting forums
make that 9 different stories.
“Thank you very much
Jeff
—–Original Message—–
From: SRD.Info-Centre.m
To:
Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 10:53 am
Subject: RE: record wolf
Hello Mr.
Thank you for contacting the Alberta Sustainable Resource Development Information Centre.
Our department has no information about this alleged record, as nothing has been recorded by Fish and Wildlife. I contacted an officer in Drayton Valley who told me that aside from rumour, they have no concrete information.
Best regards,
Alison Bulloch
Alberta Sustainable Resource Development
Public Information, Education and Outreach Programs
9920-108 St. Edmonton AB
——————————————————————————–
From:
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 1:21 PM
To: contact@mywildalberta.com
Subject: record wolf
Dear Sir/Madam,
I have recently read of a wolf taken in Drayton Valley, Alberta, that has been weighed at 197 lbs, shot by Jim Johnston and filmed by Jeff Grimolfson. Is that an accurate weight and has it been confirmed by your dept?
Thank you for any information you can provide me on this matter
Regards,
Jeff E”
An inquiry I sent to Canada concerning one version of this photo-shopped picture.
Jeff
Is it really that important. I do not think that wolves have to be check in in Alberta or if they do, then it is only the skull.
Elk
at a supposed 197 that would have been the biggest wolf ever recorded, so it would be important.
It is also a photo-shopped picture that has and is being used to fuel miss-information on a subject already to full of the same.
I also read an article where 2 professional photographers thought the picture had been doctored. I also have seen a similar picture where a man holding the wolf was 5’11” 185 pounds and the wolf was 125 lbs. The camera angle made it look like he was holding a wolf that was larger than he was.
Jeff, Great job!
______
Elk,
Do you honestly think a wolf that size, if real, would not be touted in some trophy fashion, and reported? Afterall, even that version is on a “hunt and tell” website. Come on now, you are a smart guy. Don’t get caught up in the BS. If you are that gullible, Rockhead and his Homies will recruit you.
And, in my opinion, even without examining the photo that closely, it looks like it has been Photoshopped.
It is like using your arms in front of you, with the hands at a 45 degree angle, to exlain how big the fish was. Is the size of the fish from the heed of the hands or the tip of the fingers.
There are so many of these pictures floating around that I don’t pay attention any more.
You really have to take any photo online with a grain of salt. Just Google things like Iraqi camel spider or Fragrant Flower python. These kinds of pictures are easy to exaggerate. It is the same with lots of wildlife pictures. There was one of albino moose floating around that were real moose but lived in Montana, Wyoming, Nebraska, Maine, Minnesota, and New Hampshire.
There was a young Idaho hunter that shot a wolf a couple of months ago. He claimed it was 180 pounds when he never even weighed it.
http://www.idahostatejournal.com/news/state/article_a8833bea-22c3-11df-96ce-001cc4c002e0.html
This wolf turned out to be around 130 pounds.
is the quote “It was the head and fur of what had been a massive wolf…The 2002 Coeur d’Alene High School graduate got what he estimated was a 180-pound wolf…” This wolf was NOT weighed by anyone, and was presented for check-in as stated – only a head and hide. It “felt” like 180 lbs to the hunter – that doesn’t make it 180 lbs.
http://www.spokesman.com/blogs/hbo/2010/feb/24/fg-manager-wolf-wasnt-180-pounds/
Guidelines for Using Donkeys as Guard Animals with Sheep
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/sheep/facts/donkey2.htm
Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs
The real problem is that these guys get to run there range maggots on public land,causing serious harm to the health of the range and the watershed, for damn near next to nothing, and then they get free predator control from the feds. I think if they don’t like predators eating their stock,them get them the hell off of public land, and keep them coralled on their own private land.Why do we have to pay for their cheap grazing AND there bad husbandry?A whole wolf pack killed just because a f*@#ing lamb got killed? Thats total BS. The sad thing this has been going on for a long time with are wildlife,from Coyotes to Jackrabbits and Prairie Dogs. If they don’t like living with the native wildlife of the west,then get the hell out.
I still say mules would be a better way to discourage wolves. I recall an outfitter years ago telling me about a pack mule they had at a base camp and one night a grizzly wandered thru. The mule broke the rope he was secured to and ran the grizzly out of camp.
Stick a couple of mules in with the cows around calving season and I bet there would be far fewer depredations by coyotes and wolves AND fewer calls to WS.
Nancy
I am in the process of trying to purchase 1 or 2 mules, there are very expensive and it takes a mule man to handle them, which I am not.
If a livestock owner has 400 or 500 hundred head of cattle spread out over 3000 acres of private land in the spring how many mules does a cattleman need? The mules are herd animals and will stay with mules. This is not workable. A man’s land is a man’s land and he has the rights to protect his investment whether its animals or humans — sorry but that is the way it is. You have lived Southwest Montana for 20 years and you know what can and can not be done.
Sorry Elk, I know of no rancher in these parts, that spread their calving area out over 3 thousand acres. Here they start out in a very small area, fenced, and from there work the cows and newborn calves out into other fenced areas before dumping them even futher out.
Then they round them up, add bulls to the mix and then push them up to public land summer grazing, usually around the end of June. And I have to say, its not something I look forward to, especially when 2 or more ranches are moving on the same day, when I’m trying to get to a job.
If mules bring top dollar then there must be some pretty good reasons for that.
Nancy
The reason mules cost money is training, if you have a untrained mule it can be difficult or dangerous.
I was just thinking about a group of yealings that I saw the other day.
Or, mules trained or not, could just be one of the answers to wolf depredation. I pass a few ranches over the course of my daily travels that have llamas. They always look rather pissed that I’ve come to close to their charges. If mules are herd animals, I would think they would have no problem, if raised with cattle or sheep, taking charge of a situation if it seemed life threatening to their herd. The cattle and sheep won’t, they’ve been to dumbed down over the years what with inbreeding…
Nancy,
Mules won’t do anything, without training, and Llamas are no match for wolves with out some training, although, not as intense as mules require, I lived next to a guy that had both and even though both can be very difficult to train he always stated he would rather train a Llama over a Mule..
There is a very good reason for the old “Stubborn as a Mule” and I know many who have got so darn mad because they are difficult to teach, they just sold them..
What about donkeys sb? People do infact use them in Brazil to protect their animals from jaguars. Remember sb, jaguars are pound for pound the strongest big cat alive today with the strongest jaw power and bite. I won’t say it will work most certainly over here in the states, but I am just given other options. Killing should never be the first solution.
More and more ranchers, in the US and around the world, are using guard donkeys to protect their livestock from predators.
There is no love lost between the Equidae and Canidae families. Donkeys, especially jennies, are very protective of animals they graze with and will run at, chase,stomp, kick and even kill any canine they encounter. They are also used to guard cattle from jaguars in Belize.
If ranchers are looking to protect their livestock from minimal predation, they might want to shell out $300 and purchase a donkey. This could be the answer to their problem. Now wouldn’t that be a kick in the ass?
http://www.reviewmessenger.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6134:ranchers-turn-to-natural-security-vs-wolves&catid=41:rotator-news
Jon,
South and Central America are two entirely different environments, they have never removed a natural predator in those areas, so hence those animals have been exposed to these predators…
Keep studying Jon, you might actually learn something that pertains to this country..
Now I am done, and won’t discuss this with you any longer as has been requested of me..
You missed this part sb.
More and more ranchers, in the US and around the world, are using guard donkeys to protect their livestock from predators.
sb, they are being used in this country.
http://www.reviewmessenger.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6134:ranchers-turn-to-natural-security-vs-wolves&catid=41:rotator-news
Becker told of a neighbor of his whose cattle herd was being stalked by wolves. The neighbor borrowed a donkey for his herd, and the morning after moving the donkey into that pasture, the rancher observed three wolves outside his fence with the donkey standing between the wolves and the cattle.
Since donkeys will not tolerate any canine, farm dogs learn quickly to not go near them, and learn to stay out of their pastures.
One advantage to having guard donkeys is that they will graze right along with the cattle. They are not expensive to purchase, and the care they require is essentially hoof trimming and occasional veterinary care. They can live to be 45 years old. Donkeys are easy to keep and are generally friendly with people. It can be helpful to raise a guard donkey with cattle, so that they become protective of the herd. A donkey’s natural curiosity and protective nature make it a good guardian animal.
Maybe DOL should invest in some of these donkeys instead of offering to pay for losses, that would be a long term investment, instead of the 1 for 7 average on their depredation program…
I am all for restructuring the public lands grazing policies, it has needed it for a long time now, but it seems this could be a good fix, if in fact it would work over the large expanses of grazing land that many have permits for.
But I have to say, I can’t see it working on over 100,000 acres of permitted grazing land, like some ranchers own! And then what about the private land owners, some of which own large expanses of land?
I don’t think it would hurt to try sb.
Jon,
I am absolutely positive, it won’t hurt you at all…just call it a feeling!
LOL
I’m not sure I understand the reference to training here. Most of, if not all, of the guard dog breeds out there are raised with sheep and feel protective around them because of that early upbringing. Would that be somehow different if it came to raising mules with cattle?
I saw a sandhill crane run off a cow moose the other day, and many of us who live out here, know how nasty a full grown moose can be.
Nancy,
In reality, there is really not much in the lower 48 that have that ingrown fear of wolves, it has only been 15 years that they have been living together again, we do know that they learn very quickly, at least wild animals do, but I have also seen instances where wild animals will let a wolf walk right up and grab them by the snout..
Now Mules and Llamas being a domestic animal and actually relying on humans to intervene, have to be taught to defend against wolves, and Mules, at least those in the US have not really had to work to defend against wild predators for generations, there is no real instinct in them at this time to really do much..
You can’t just turn these animals out, without training and expect the instinct they don’t really have anymore to take over and drive their path..
SB, do you have anything to back up your claim that donkeys and llamas have to be taught to defend against canines? I do not believe this is the case at all. I don’t think donkeys distinguish between coyotes and wolves and it sounds like the donkeys attack domestic dogs as well. It sounds like an innate behavior and I can’t imagine how you would train a donkey or llama to attack wolves. You say they have not had to defend against predators, but domestic dogs are the most common predators in many areas and there are the donkeys that share the range with wild horses that are a dime a dozen. I have heard nothing to believe that these animals require training to be aggressive towards canines or that they lack “real instinct” at self preservation. You are making statements as if they are facts, but I don’t know if you have any real source of information, do you? The problem sounds as if it is keeping them from using their aggression on smaller livestock like sheep.
Books out on the subject
http://www.amazon.com/Livestock-Guardians-Donkeys-Protect-Storeys/dp/1580176968
http://www.amazon.com/Livestock-Protection-Dogs-Selection-Training/dp/1577790626/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b
donkeys:
http://www.cadama.org/donkeys_for_predator_control.htm
http://www.icelandicsheepworld.com/guarddonkeys.htm
“…the donkey also strongly bonds with their sheep. Even if they didn’t, I found, they are strongly (I mean strongly) territorial. They don’t like intruders in their territory. Aha, I thought, I’ve found the Achilles heel. What about humans? Well, it seems that the “intruder label” doesn’t particularly apply to humans, just animals, as in dogs, coyotes, and other four footed things… Donkeys have extremely hard, small hooves; and they are amazingly accurate in where they place them, whether that be on the ground or in the air. Those hooves are very effective projectile missiles. They have incredibly strong necks, jaws and teeth, capable of lifting, crunching and flinging objects of 50 to 100 lbs. They also move away from predators, presenting their rears in a way that leads the predator to believe they are retreating and encouraging attack from behind. What they are really doing is positioning themselves to deliver those projectile missiles in the most effective way. They can use their front feet in a similar way, stamping an adversary and breaking its bones, but they seem to prefer the back handed (footed) method.”
http://sheep101.info/201/guardians.html
Now, of course you can’t protect a herd roaming on thousands of acres with one LGD, but it might be the case that several dogs and donkeys could reduce depredation and I see no reason not to experiment.
SB, I try and keep up with the weekly reports on wolf depredations in Montana.
http://fwp.mt.gov/wildthings/management/wolf/wolfWeekly2010.html
Not only is it a short list of cattle & sheep losses (considering the vast numbers of both in the state) but you seldom see any other livestock mentioned such as horses, mules, llamas, etc. falling prey to wolves. Yet we both know they also number in the hundreds of thousands in this state. Why is that?
Nancy,
As I spend more of my time in Idaho and WA these days, I have not kept up on the Montana reports as much as I should, so I don’t know, it seems as if the reports are more and more sparse on the information they are disclosing these days…
I will be back in Montana in Mid July, so if I can gather some scuttlebutt, I will post it.
SB, The Wisdom area still seems to make the “wolf caused” depredation report just about every week even though from what I’ve heard, there are no longer any packs still alive and well thanks to WS. I certainly haven’t heard any howls since late winter and I’m just a few miles away……. as the crow flies.
Nancy,
The Wisdom are is a unique area in the state of Montana, most of the ranchers there are long time many generation ranchers, with some very large parcels, many of the families go back to the time of the Big Hole Battle with the Nez Perce, because they won, they feel they are entitled.. I hunted that area for many years, before some of the ranchers, decided they were going to try and blackmail the state and the feds.
I have discussed bison introduction in that area with some of the ranchers, and talk about a war being instituted! The graze belongs to them and them only! and anything that threatens that graze or those animals will be dealt with, period, end of story!
Maybe next time I am down that way, I will give you a holler and we can have a cup of coffee..
Nancy
++I certainly haven’t heard any howls since late winter and I’m just a few miles away……. as the crow flies.++
I hope you do not sit in the Wise River Club or Fette’s in Wisdom and talk about your love for wolves — I know you don’t. Some things have changed and something have not changed in the last 50 years. Like Save Bears says these are very powerful ranchers with large private land holdings worth millions and millions. I have hunted in the 70’s with some of the large landowners
Memorial Day Weekend, I was sitting at the bar in Jackson Hot Springs Lodge having a beer. I told the people at the bar when I was 15, I sat here, ordered, drank beers and no one cared; cards were played and punch boards punched. The bartender sternly said “They care today” . The highway through Jackson was gravel then. On the 4th of July the ranchers and hired hands came to town to party, drink and race their horses on main street. The youngsters had a grease pig contest. Today it is Harley’s instead of horses and bikers instead of cowboys. Some things change, but the landownership and power have not. Money rules.
Elk,
It is amazing, how many people really don’t understand how large some of these private land holdings are, it is one of the few places that the first time I was going to hunt in the area, and I was introduced to many of the land owners to get permission, I picked up a USFS map of the area and while most places designate on their maps, the forest service areas and wilderness areas, this part of Montana, the USFS map SHOWS the landowners! And some of those land holdings are larger that the USFS lands, I was fortunate, I was introduced to these people by someone who has hunted that area for over 50 years that I am friends with, but those ranchers have some massive pieces of property.
I also have run into this, east of Ennis, MT, there is one ranch out there, that you drive for over 40 miles heading for Yellowstone and everything north of the hwy is owned by one family!
You want land “barons!” these guys have so much power it is not funny at all!
Coffe sounds good SB, maybe a few others could make it like Elk. Get a lively, positive discussion going on wolves.