Bridges tells us artificial sweetener will kill all canines, including dogs–
Toby Bridges’ name has been out of the news a while after his ISP apparently revoked his old web site. He has a new ISP now and web site, but he is also sending out his opinion to local newspapers. Read this in the Clark Fork Chronicle (Montana).
Artificial sweetener kills all canines, not just wolves
Sunday, December 12 2010 @ 01:14 PM MST
Contributed by: Admin
Opinion by Toby Bridges
He writes the “opinion” in the third person, thus probably avoiding prosecution, as he can claim he is only providing information about what is going on.
What shocks me is the lack of concern about poisoning dogs, and if Xylitol, the artificial sweetener, kills all canids, it is reasonable to expect that it probably kills a number of non-canids too, both wild and domestic.
My opinion is that you write to your elected officials, even the wolf-hating ones, to express your outrage that they seem to listen to people like Bridges. This is getting close to terrorism.
Comments
more and more are now being found dead – and not all have been shot. It seems that quite a few very disgusted sportsmen are now reverting to a bit of chemical warfare.
I would like to see proof of this. If more and more wolves are being found dead, poisoned by those who hate wolves, it would surely be news and you would see it all over the internet. toby likes to give the impression that many many wolves are being killed when only probably a few here and there have actually been killed. Atleast Toby admits that some “sportsmen” are breaking the law.
jon, could you please use ” ” quotation marks around other parties’ words in your posts? It would make your posts easier to follow if we could tell that one paragraph was someone else’s (in quotes), followed by your thoughts on that person’s statement. thanks!
Will do sap.
Also, please provide a link or citation to the original comments.
People like Toby, Don peay, rockholm, Ron Gillette, etc they are all the same. They don’t care what other animals get killed in the “crossfire” as long as some wolves are killed.
Jon – some thoughts on the subject:
http://www.uiweb.uidaho.edu/e-journal/pan_eco/peshame.html
Interesting they don’t seem to care about dogs being killed but will show pictures of mutilated dogs on their web sites. Just a bit hypocritical?
Toby has a black labrador I believe. I wonder how the scumbag would feel if someone put xylitol out and his dog ate it. Like you said, these people don’t care about anyone’s dogs as long as the xylitol they put out takes a few wolves out, everything is fine and dandy. if anything, it just shows you how extreme these people can get. Sacrificing people’s beloved pets in order to kill a few wolves.
It is amazing how far people like this will go to kill wolves. Just think if they used this time and energy to try to solve problems that actually affect everyone.
A few years ago, I found two dead cougars while floating the Salmon River in March. One was under a backcountry cabin’s porch, where it had crawled, and the other was lying in the open. When I mentioned it to IDFG, they felt it was probably the result of poison meant for wolves.
I saw Ron Gillette on the local news when he was in Missoula. The man clearly has an anger issue that knows no bounds. I believe he and others like Toby Bridges will stop at nothing to achieve their goals.
Mike:
where on the Salmon River was this? Upstream or downstream of Shoup? Corn Creek? Vinegar Creek?
We are still dealing with 13 unsolved Compound 1080 dog poisonings and 3 cats here in Salmon, including the last two, which were our dogs.
thanks
Larry Z
larry@westernwatersheds.org
Larry,
One dead cougar was under the porch of the Rhett Creek cabin across from China Bar, the other was in the woods at Corey Bar, just above Salmon Falls. Sorry to hear about your dogs.
Why would a paper even print this crap, do they thing it’s a public service announcement?
And now were getting another lesson in how to legitimize a weird fringe person. Republishing this crap does no good.
According to wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xylitol#Dogs ,a canine would have to eat >.1 Kilograms of xylitol per kg of body weight for a fatal dose, which means at least 5Kg to kill a 50kg wolf. a Kilogram is 2.2 pounds,so I can just imagine one of these idiots packing in 10 pounds of xylitol to lace a carcass, and it would only work if the wolf ate all of it and there was only one wolf. If a non-fatal dose is eaten it would just make the wolf sick for a short period of time,and in order to do permanent damage it would have to eat more than .5kg per kg of body weight,so 25kg for a 50kg wolf=50lbs of it. Xylitol isn’t cheep, so maybe this would be a good way for them to bankrupt them selves and that might shut them up. Maybe we don’t really need to be worried about these guys;-)
If they do sprinkle xylitol wherever, there is no guarantee wolves are going to come across it and eat it. Other animals might eat the the meat or whatever the xylitol is sprinkled on first before the wolves get to it if they ever even do. Nuts like Toby and Don Peay just to name 2 would not care if your beloved dog got killed as long as the xylitol killed some wolves. This is how extreme and sick people like Toby and Don Peay are. I believe it was Don Peay who wanted to get some sheltered dog and use them as a bait for wolves as a way to kill wolves.
As with other would be wolf poisoners in the the past ten years, these people are going to end poisoning people’s dogs.
Because the source of the information is known, I would not want to be in Bridge’s shoes when an angry dog owner finds his or her dog got some xylitol while out in the field or the woods.
Bryanto,
I looked at a number sources today. They indicated a lethal dose was more like 0.1 gram per kilogram. That’s 100 milligrams per kg.
Not very much.
The wikipedia source says greater than 100 mg of xylitol per 1 kg of body weight is a lethal dose.
Assume a 100 pound wolf, or 45 kilograms.
100 mg x 45 kg = 4500 mg of xylitol to kill an adult wolf.
To visualize 4500 mg, an Advil liqui-gel holds 200 mg; 23 of those liqui-gels would be a lethal dose for one adult wolf.
Twenty three liqui-gels fit easily in the palm of my hand.
Poisoning animals is cowardly, cruel, and incompetent.
What is real scary, is I have heard information that there are a couple of groups actually trying to get a company to package xylitol in liqua-gel caps so it is easier to carry while in the filled and there are rumors that WS is considering the same thing..instead of sprinkling, they would just place several capsules in a carcass and go on about their business, the last bit of information I heard was placing them in the stomach and digestive track, which of course is one the first places a wolf or coyote goes for..
Sorry,it was late and I did my math wrong. Poisoning is an unethical cowardly thing to do, although many legal control methods aren’t much better.
Canada has been poisoning wolves for years ask anyone who hunts there wolves are too smart, you may kill one or two but the rest of the pack learns.
Toby Bridges:
yeah ~ because pre-Columbia, humans hadn’t “appeared upon” North America.
Toby Bridges is a eurocentric racist.
I think racism and unreasoning hatred of some kinds of animals are closely related.
Wow Brian, you actually managed to read his ignorant ramblings? I don’t have the patience.
That shows how backward so many of these people really are. Have they not noticed that we are a full decade into the 21st century?
ToBy , or Not ToBy … that is the question.
What is disturbing is Toby knows what he is doing. He is basically telling other hunters to go buy some xylitol and go out there and control the wolf population yourselves. He said in his article that many “sportsmen” have already been doing this. What he is doing on his website advocating poisoning to kill wildlife is no different than a person telling others how to make bombs and blow up things on their own website.
And Congressman Rehberg let Bridges be on his “wolf panel,” at one of his “listening” hearings, even though Bridges is advocating lawlessness. It says something about Rehberg – but I guess that was common knowledge already.
Yeah, it does. I believe more people like Rehberg actually agree with Toby Bridge’s, but just don’t want to come out publicly and admit it. You know behind closed doors, Rehberg probably agrees with “sss”. You’d have to be real stupid to be someone in power like Rehberg and come out publicly that you agree with advocating breaking the law.
One can only hope Bridges has a USFWS or FBI shadow who is taking good notes on the crap he is spewing out, and if he acts on his own to implement his ideas, he gets caught. It is a form of ecoterrorism, and I even bet Homeland Security could bend the rules to accomodate the situation, if the will was there.
This is my biggest pet peeve. People hiding behind the 1st amendment, knowing full well that no-one will prosecute because it will just go through the court system by abusing the constitution.
Xylitol will kill many other animals besides wolves. Most of the info & research about xylitol toxicity is with dogs simply because the domestic dog has been the carnivore most likely to ingest it.
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=88329&provider=gnews
http://veterinarymedicine.dvm360.com/vetmed/Medicine/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/392959
Anyone want to place bets on how many kilograms of xylitol I can stuff down Toby Bridges throat?
Might be a viable option if you actually had proof, that he was doing something, other than running his mouth…some people let these loud mouth punks get under their skin to easy…
He is a cowardly little piece of garbage–he’s spouting off the information so as to take advantage of someone dumber than he is to go out and actually do the dirty work and take the risk; he’s too chickenshit to put his money where his mouth is and do his own misdeeds.
Toby may not be doing it HIMSELF but he is encouraging other people to do it. Because he keeps running his mouth, some idiots will listen to him. Sort of like Hitler, did he kill any jews with his own hands? Dogs and some other animals may be more likely to go for xylitol than wolves so maybe too many wolves won’t be found dead from eating xylitol.
John,
The authorities are well aware of his activities…him running his mouth is nothing new and he is well known…
And I have to say, as others have said in the past, the continued comparisons to Hitler as well as the holocaust is really not needed, comparing the killing of wolves to the killing of millions of humans is uncalled for..
Well, sorry about the comparsion to Hitler. I did not mean to compare something to killing humans, my point was someone can be responsible for something simply by talking and enciting others to do it. You know a lot about websites? I don’t, but the first one was shut down for copyright infringement, they did not seem to care too much what he was talking about. I would like someone to help get another site shut down. It won’t shut him up permantly but it will keep him busy.
John,
I do not condone any type of advocacy for illegal activities and never have, I would be a lot angrier if we actually had any cases being found of wolves being poisoned in this manner, but right now, I have not seen any…
I believe the wolf haters will resort to the same tactic they always have and that is their guns, poachers don’t normally use poison, they want people to know they killed them with a gun.
Bridges is a nutcase, but I have not seen his rants really resort in much more that big talk..
Yeah, you are right. I don’t think many wolves if any will be killed by xylitol. I don’t even know if it is very likely a wolf will eat something laced with xylitol. A domestic dog is probably much more likely to eat it than a wolf. Other animals are probably more likely than wolves to scavange gut piles.
I hate Toby though. That is the reason I found this site in the first place, because it was about Toby. I hate Toby & well, I am not going to say anything else. 🙂
John,
In the areas that wolves inhabit, there is really only a couple of months this could actually be done, I mean you can lace coyotes, but wolves are not known to eat coyotes and they are one of the only larger animals that can be shot without a season. The only way to try to do this would be during hunting season, unless they are going to compound the poaching and kill deer and elk out of season. Most of the hunters I know in these three states are not going to put their hunting privileges on the line to kill animals out of season to get wolves..
Bridges is simply running his mouth, yes he is trying to incite, but so far, he has not been real successful…
Toby’s first website was shut down because of copyright infringement. He stole someone elses photos to use on his website. The other ones will be harder to shut down. Here is some info if anyone wants to give it a try.
Domain LOBOWATCH.ORG [ Site Info Traceroute RBL/DNSBL lookup ]
Registrar Tucows Inc. (R11-LROR)
Whois server whois.publicinterestregistry.net
Created 26-May-2010
Updated 25-Jul-2010
Expires 26-May-2011
Time Left 170 days 15 hours 54 minutes
Status CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
DNS servers NS0.RECYCLEDSOUL.COM NS0.RECYCLEDSOUL.COM
NS1.RECYCLEDSOUL.COM 65.61.150.171
LOBOWATCH.ORG – Geo Information
IP Address 70.86.7.140
Host lobowatch.org
Location US, United States
City Houston, TX 77002
Organization THEPLANET.COM INTERNET SERVICES
ISP THEPLANET.COM INTERNET SERVICES
AS Number AS21844 ThePlanet.com Internet Services, Inc.
Latitude 29°75’23” North
Longitude 95°36’70” West
Distance 9815.23 km (6098.90 miles)
Also;
http://www.lobowatch.com/KillinTime2.html
lobowatch.net
http://wolfhuntupdate.blogspot.com/
Toby Bridges
100 Parker Court
Missoula, MT 59801
Toby Bridges is using these websites to encourage illegal activities.
1) He is threatening peoples lives.
2) He is encouraging people to break the law by illegally poisioning protected animals.
“The battle will get bloody from this point on. And the real sportsmen of this country aren’t at all concerned about taking
prisoners.”
Toby Bridges
LOBO WATCH
I don’t know that much myself about shutting down websites. Here is what someone told me;
“Usually if someone is trying to hide their identity they will lie on the internic domain registration information, it is one way to pull their site quickly.
Contacting the planet.com and making a formal complaint to them and the domain registration people is the first place to go. Then there are numerous of other options that can be used.”
John,
I have been filing complaints with his new web host daily since he was shut down on homestead due to the promotion of illegal activities, I have received mails back from them that their compliance dept is investigating..
Save bears,
I am not a computer whiz… but, I would like to add my complaint to yours at Bridges’ web host. Could you give me the address you have been sending to? Thanks.
This Toby is an *****. His website reads, “the
environmentalist, who dream of returning to a pre- Columbian
environment, before humans appeared upon North America, are
thrilled with the growing wolf numbers.” There were no humans in
North America prior to Columbus? I guess he considers Native
American to be wildlife.
I’ve edited your comment for legal reasons. Please be careful not to make libelous statements here.
It’s never libel if it is true.
Yes, it is true. I doubt Toby will waste his time suing anyone that calls him names. Afterall, he is someone who has extorted people in the past and has violated the lacey act. Do you know how many people have called Toby names? MANY! Toby will get his. Karma will get him.
Again, there are laws in most states, even including MT and ID, against inciting illegal activities. The authorities just flat refuse to enforce them against this clearly illegal incitement. Bridges, Rammell, and a number of others are in absolutely clear violation.
I think in this case where it is on the web and being perpetrated across state lines and where it is a federal law, you should go to the FBI.
For violation of state laws, you should go to the Attorney General of that state, the District Attorney of that District, or the Prosecuting Attorney of that jurisdiction.
Here is the website for the FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center that is designed for people just like Toby. I’ve used this before. If a few file complaints, I can gurantee that Toby will have his website cleaned up within a month and that he will never do it again.
http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx
I posted my complaint. They won’t just come after the website…they will come after Toby.
I contacted Quentin Kujala (Montana FWP), and Jim Lukens (Salmon Supervisor – IDFG) regarding Bridges breaking Montana and Idaho state law regarding the incitement of criminal activity.
As requested, Kujala forwarded my message to law enforcement, and Lukens gave me no answer at all, except a link to the US Fish & Wildlife Service. When I pressed Lukens, he suggested I contact Jon Heggen, the IDFG Enforcement Bureau Chief, which I did.
It has been about ten days, and I have not heard back yet from either state agency. It does appear that the agencies are choosing to not act.
I think one of the biggest problems is, there is no verified cases of wolves or other animals actually being poisoned, so if the crimes are not being committed, then his running his mouth is not inciting anything…because so far, nobody is doing anything..
Who would be in the position to actually know if that was going on SB?
I’ve got close to a foot and a half of snow in my yard, its a winter we haven’t seen around these parts in years. I’ve passed alot of open gates (with snowmobile tracks running thru them) going off into pastures, which go for miles and miles, up to hillsides and mountain areas.
Yes, the cattle are all tucked away close to the ranches now and the elk have headed out to other parts of the country but if the “fear” of attack from wolves is playing on the minds of many ranchers, SSS or poisoning could certainly come into play and who would know, until a carcass…… or ten, showed up after the spring melt?
Nancy, at this time of year, when there are not many in the field and most of all nobody hunting the type of poisoning this guy is spouting about, would not be an easy feat…SSS would be a far easier prospect at this time of year, I know I sure as hell would not trip over hill and dale to kill anything right now, its to cold, to much snow and to damn much work!
Some background on Toby;
http://www.tonydean.com/issues2a72e.html?sectionid=8993
http://howlcolorado.org/2010/06/07/anti-wolf-web-site-proposes-illegal-poisoning-of-wolves/
http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=33197
http://nebraskanews.blogspot.com/2006/09/lets-just-eliminate-primitive-firearms.html
http://www.nchuntandfish.com/forums/showthread.php?p=351363
http://www.nodakoutdoors.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=27744
Under Montana law, there does not have to be any verified case of wolves being poisoned. Simply advocating the criminal act is enough, as long as it is “purposely or knowingly” done, is “directed to inciting” the criminal action, or “likely to incite or produce” the criminal action. The law further states that the criminal act advocated can be imminent, with imminent defined as “immediate in time, impending, or on the verge of happening.”
Mike…….Where, under Montana Law, can I find this ?
Jerry,
This is the text of the “incitement” statute in full:
MCA 45-8-105. Criminal incitement. (1) “Criminal incitement” means the advocacy of crime, malicious damage or injury to property, or violence.
(2) A person commits the offense of criminal incitement if the person purposely or knowingly advocates the commission of a criminal offense and the advocacy is:
(a) directed to inciting or producing that imminent unlawful, criminal action; and
(b) likely to incite or produce that unlawful, criminal action.
(3) For purposes of this section, “imminent” means immediate in time, impending, or on the verge of happening.
(4) A person convicted of the offense of criminal incitement shall be imprisoned in the state prison for a term not to exceed 10 years
You know what, this is a good idea. One of the original replies I got from homestead was:
JT via RT to me
show details Oct 15
As a passive conduit, we cannot monitor user websites, but we respond
to breaches of our user agreement when we learn of such behavior.
As we clearly state in the Terms of Service, members are solely
responsible for the content of their Web pages. We do not monitor Web
pages in any way, and only considers taking action when matters are
brought to our attention.
We will remove Web pages from our servers if the content is illegal as
defined by U.S. law. Examples of illegal content include (but are not
limited to) child pornography, copyright infringement, and sales of
illegal substances or items on the Web. We will take action once
provided with notice of illegal activity on a website hosted by us, and
with corresponding legal proof.
————————————————————————–
JT via RT to me
show details Oct 19
Hello,
As a passive conduit, we cannot monitor user websites, but we respond
to breaches of our Terms of Service when we learn of such behavior.
Your previous email states that the site uses images taken from other
sites. We would need the owner of the images to supply a formal
notification in accordance with the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, 17
U.S.C. Section 512.
In regards to your claim that the site is selling poison, please list
the pages that sell poison. As far as the claim that the site is
breaking several laws, please list which laws the site is breaking.
Respectfully,
Homestead Compliance Team
————————————————————————-
We ended up getting him on the copyright infringement. Got someone who was an expert on that to give formal notice. It took a lot of time to locate the photographer & get this done. I don’t see any more copyright violations or him selling xylitol. However, he is still breaking laws by encouraging people to do this. I don’t know too much about shutting down websites. Anyone want to give this a shot as far as giving notice he is breaking this law? I will share info that I don’t want to post on a blog if someone has knowledge of shutting down websites & wants to attempt this. It may not be easy but it may work.
By the way, I have made arrangements to speak with a Montana FWP law enforcement official in Helena tomorrow regarding this topic. I’ll pass on what I learn.
Thanks for doing that, but Montana is not wolf friendly. Do not be surprised if nothing is done.
Mike,
Despite what Jon says, I will be interested in hearing back as to what they say, I still have many friends that work for FWP and I know for a fact they do care about law breakers, namely poachers and they will do anything they can to prevent poachers from illegally killing any animal..Jon, has never been to Montana, he knows nothing of those that live here and really has no idea of how FWP feels about Wildlife including wolves..
And Yes Jon, I know your ignoring me…
Yes SB there really hard on wolf poachers.
“You could pay an outfitter in the Northern Rockies $3,600 or $2,900 for a guided hunt to kill one wolf, or you could come to Montana and illegally poach two wolves for $1,135. And you don’t need to worry about losing your hunting privileges for the poaching.
$1,135 and no revocation of hunting privileges; that was the punishment imposed upon a wolf hunter in northwest Montana that illegally killed two wolves near Glacier National Park last month.
The State of Montana also failed to include those two wolves and another illegally poached wolf in its hunt harvest quota of 75 wolves.
With such a ridiculously light wrist slap, what kind of message is Montana sending about the value of wolves in the state?
For comparison, two men from Bozeman, Montana, poached one bull elk in Yellowstone National Park a few years ago. Their punishment? One of the hunters received 30 days in jail, a year of supervised probation and three years of unsupervised probation (he also pled guilty to a marijuana possession charge). The other was sentenced to five days in jail already served and three years unsupervised probation. Each was ordered to pay more than $8,000 in restitution, fines and other costs, and both were banned from hunting for four years and prohibited from visiting Yellowstone for four years. They were also ordered to forfeit the guns and ammunition they used during their illegal hunt.”
Timz
That is federal court. When one loses their hunting privileges in federal court, from what I have read in the papers it is world wide. In state court it is statewide or other states in the group. There are two different animals and I would not want to ever be in federal court.
Iy happened in a Montana courtroom.
If the violation occur in Yellowstone National Park it is a federal case and would be tried in Mammoth Hot Springs. The National Park Service just built a new jail and court room in Mammoth.
It happened near Glacier NP which is no where near Yellowstone. Fact is it happened in MT, the case was tried in MT, and the sentence(if you can call it that) was handed out in MT.
Timz,
I have never once said I agree with the fine and such that are handed out to poachers, in fact, this net year, I am going to travel to Helena in support of getting stiffer sanctions against poachers, my self personally believe all poachers should be charged with a Felony and if convicted, loose their right to hunt as well as their right to own a gun for life, I don’t believe in three strikes, two strikes, one strike and you are out, period end of story.
I don’t like thieves, I don’t like criminals and I have very strong feelings and convictions as to what I believe should be done to them.
So don’t try it with me Timz.
Now the reason it was prosecuted in state court is the wolves were not on the endangered species list at the time this situation happened, if it were to happen now, it would be prosecuted in Missoula in the Federal Courts..
I was not happy with the penalties handed down on that wolf case, but it was inline with what most states hand down on a first time poaching situation.. Which I believe needs to be a whole lot harsher..
By the Way Elk, I emailed Ralph and asked him to give you my email, did you happen to get it?
Savebears
No I did not. My office phone is 406 586-0900, it is just me and that damn answering machine.
Good for you SB, I sincerely hope you are successful in your anti-poaching efforts.
Save Bears
My secondary e mail address is: Englishnarrows@aol.com
After reading the below article, I believe Toby is in violaiton of the Sedition Act of 1798. Speech is generally protected under the Constitution, however, not if it advocates “imminent” violent or unlawful conduct.
You can read an form your own opinion. It think he is going to get it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2005-05-02-speech_x.htm
If it happens it will be the feds, the state would go after him.
Was the following little clip from the Spoksman Review posted…from Dec 17
Feds plan action if Idaho wolves killed illegally
GRANGEVILLE, Idaho — A U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service official says law enforcement — see full clip at…
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/dec/17/nw-today-man-shoots-self-buttocks-after-threat/
As far as websites go, no one seems to want to do anything about something that can even be remotely defended as “freedom of speech”.
Here is a reply from the USFW
Ed_Bangs@fws.gov to Contact2, me
show details Nov 16
We have already looked into this issue. Mr. Bridges is simply exercising his guaranteed right to free speech. Please refer to our website at http://westerngraywolf.fws.gov for factual information about our recovery program. Thank you for your interest in wolves and wolf management.
Contact2/ARL/R9/FWS/DOI
Contact2/ARL/R9/FWS/DOI
10/26/2010 03:31 PM
To
Ed Bangs/R6/FWS/DOI@FWS
cc
Subject
Fw: New message from Contact Us form
Sincerely,
Customer Service Center – Tier II
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
If you have any further questions, you may prefer to contact us by telephone,
we encourage you to call our Customer Service Center at 1-800-344-WILD,
Monday through Friday from 8:00 am to 8:00 pm eastern time.
—– Forwarded by Contact2/ARL/R9/FWS/DOI on 10/26/2010 05:31 PM —–
I’m sure he was. Just keep filing reports on his website, eventually, they will get shut down if we’re lucky like the first time. I wish I was there when Toby found out his website got shut down. The look and anger he must have felt would have been a joy to watch.
John,
Not that I am unsympathetic to your motivations, but could your words be a “call to action” or “incitement to criminal activity,” or are you just exercising your right to free speech?
Truth is, you can go very far advocating things in the United States as long as you don’t say something like lets violate the law right now or in the near future and here is what we are going to do; meet here to get started, etc.
You can also go a long way saying bad things about a person, especially if they are true and you can prove it. However, if they are not true, and they can prove malice in your untruths, you are in jeopardy.
I’d rather people don’t even get close on this web site. I removed one paragraph of John’s comment after I saw it.
webmaster
John,
Then, of course, there is the civil side of your dislike for Bridges, that if taken too far can get you, and possibly others in trouble. “Hate” was a word you have used several times. Consider possible claims of defamation (for which truth is a defense, by the way). There is also tortious interference with contractual relations (improper interference with his relationship with his internet provider), or “harassment.” Then, in some states there is the catchall, “negligent or intentional infliction of emotional distress.” There are more civil claims, but those are just a couple off the top of my head. The more there are, even if not proven, the more expensive it is for the defendant, since under the American judicial system each side pays their respective cost, unless there is a statute saying otherwise (not the usual situation in a civil matter).
Funny thing about hate, or contempt. I once heard it is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies. Almost an irony in this discussion. Better to channel one’s positive energies in a direction that does not get one in legal trouble.
Almost forgot to mention if you are a citizen of another state than the one where your potential plaintiff resides, or there is a question of federal law you might wind up in federal court. Did someone say federal court is not a place you want to be?
What did I elicit that is illegal? Stuffing xylitol down Toby’s throat??? I have an e-mail from Toby threatening to shoot people. I am not worrying about that and with everything he says I am not worried about a xylitol comment.
I am just going to drop the subject of Hitler, the SS and all Nazi references because that could just go back & forth forever.
John,
From where I sit your just like Toby, extreme and eliciting illegal activity. I did like your Hitler reference, look at it this way, hitler is played by the wolf coalition, you can play a henchman stopping the anti-wolfers and spreading propaganda. The wolves can be the “SS” slaughtering 1000’s of elk, deer and moose every year. The chosen ones the SS can then populate the world. No freedoms, no guns, no rights for those who live on the land. Only the chosen one shall rule. Bow down to the WOLF profess your allegiance or be crushed.
Hey Bob, Sieg Heil !! You assume I am a henchman from a pro-wolf coalition because I “dislike” Toby. I think everyone assumes it was only “pro-wolf” people who got Toby’s site down. There are more than just “pro-wolf” people who “dislike” Toby. Since you like Hitler references, it’s somewhat like this. We worked together with Russia in World War 2 to defeat Hitler. Yeah, we knew Stalin and communism were our enemy and they knew we were theirs. Hitler was a greater enemy to everyone so we worked together to destroy him first. I guess you don’t know too much about Toby. Sorry, I won’t be able to post anything else on this site because I will be heading back home in the morning. I am not stupid enough to post anything sent from an ISP address in my home state. Everyone can just sit back and watch, it may take a little time, but Toby is going down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob-
I’m sure you believe what you write is accurate. Those darn wolves slaughtering those thousands of animals every year! I’ve got news for you- wolves are incapable of being evil- unlike humans. Are the thousands of TROPHY HUNTERS that injure countless animals with their bows and arrows any less or more cruel? You people trying to link wolves that are wired to kill animals to your freedom, guns, and land need to have your heads examined!
Yeah, you’re right William, but some don’t seem to understand that. They will until the day they die claim that wolves are evil. I’ve seen some hunters refer to wolves as hounds of hell. It’s like these people cannot ever seem to understand that wolves are not these vicious hounds of hell, they are simply just wild animals that have to kill elk and deer in order to survive. It’s as simple as that, but no matter what you tell these people, they will still continue to live in their own little reality and believe their own little lies.
I think where Toby’s website talks about hunters carrying Xylitol with them hunting to spinkle on gutpiles to poison wolves, it passes the test of advocating “imminent” unlawful conduct and is not protected by the constitution.
Imagine a conservative Arizonan providing information on how to make poison candy and packaging it to look like Reeses Buttercups and advocated carrying it into Mexican neighborhoods and accidentally leaving pieces on benches and on fire hydrants for children to find and consume.
Would Ed Bangs consider this to be protected by the constitution as free speech?
WM,
Being in the construction industry and sometimes working on billion dollar projects ripe with graft and corruption, I’ve been in some very difficult situations with some very unsavory characters. I have been slandered, defamed, demoted, and fired by some very evil people for some very dishonest and unethical reasons.
My personal view is that we all have a moral obligation to see that graft and corruption and general illegal and/or immoral behavior is exposed and that it is punished. Illegal or immoral behavior is like a noxious weed in that if it is simply ignored, it will grow and spread and the entire society will suffer. Your children will suffer and your grandchildren will suffer. So, no, I do not agree that we should cower for fear attack whether the attack be legal or illegal.
I agree that if someone wrongs you, the best revenge is to lead an honest and good life, but, on the other hand, we cannot just bury our heads in the sand and hope the bad people go away or learn their lesson at the hands of someone else. You do not need to be stupid and put yourself in harm’s way but if someone is an evil abuser or thinks he/she is above the law, we have a moral obligation to help expose them and see that they are punished. I care about my society. I’m not just on some carefree joyride here in America.
PW,
My advices were not intended for one to ignore moral obligations. They were more along the line of suggestions for not doing dumb things that have unintended legal consequences for themselves or others. People are certainly free to chose their own courses of action. Some make better choices than others, usually when they have better information.
[See webmaster comments above]
And for the record, I dislike Bridges and all he stands for. Of course taking a swing at an asshole like that would just increase the risk of an assault/battery criminal charge or civil claim, for what might otherwise be a considered civic duty in society that does not live by the rule of law. Ah, but in the minds of some, maybe it is worth the risk.
Feel better?
FYI, general:
http://www.ncsl.org/default.aspx?tabid=13495
Jeff E,
Companion federal laws. Not sure how current the analysis is, but there is a Justice Department link at the bottom, and a good explanation of cyberstalking:
http://www.cyberguards.com/CyberStalking.html
—————-
John,
Might want to read up on some of this, and if some of your research fits activities of your nemisis, forward the email, etc., on to someone who can start a file (if there isn’t one already).
In the meantime, be mindful of what you say and do under the same rules.
I take all such e-mail, posts, what have you and not only make a hard copy of them which gives a time-date stamp and what website. (and so does not matter if they are later deleted by author/moderator) they come from but also forward all such to my lawyer who archives them as one of the most important aspects of any such possible legal action is establishing a history.
Toby is not the only one. This is Rockholm’s facebook page. Here we have a female outfitter from Idaho that is advocating poisoning wolves as well.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=129344620416761&v=wall
Billijo Beck What worked way back when…I know because my papa would tell stories. Is they would take mules alive and go in the back country. Now is the best time along with Spring when pups are around. And inject the mule alive with 1080. Let it run through the whole system. Posion Works.
However, since it is Now illegal to use posion that option will not be allowed.
Wolves are hard to hunt by air. They head for the trees and you need someone pretty ballsy running that chopper. I would suggest some army guys. Because these guys just don’t cut it.
It took our Forefathers over 100 years using Posion, trapping, bounty hunting, and hunting to kill off wolves.
Selling hunting licenses to everyone AINT going to cut it….
57 minutes ago ·
Billijo Beck You know…MT. back in 1909 introduced Mange…Maybe it’s time to catch some live Bait and use it once again. Use the kind that is Really bad…It worked back then. Maybe it will work again.
I cannot believe how many people actually believe this stuff on here. A lot of lemmings. This is a site that should be investigated as well.
Strange how I haven’t found pro-wolf sites advocating illegal activity. Some might be a little too bleeding heart-like but I haven’t seen any advertising illegal activity.
Pro,
I have actually seen pro sites that have advocated doing damage to hunters vehicles, advocate to disrupt lawful hunts, so yes, they are out there..
Are you referring to organizations like ALF or Earth First!?
No, I am referring to personal blogs and websites like this, why is so hard to understand the extreme elements on both sides of this issue have used the same type of tactics?
I probably notice both sides as I am more neutral than many on this issue and have a tendency to seek out websites devoted to both sides..
Save bears:
Not to nitpick, but the word “neutral” denotes or at least implies disinterest or impartiality. I don’t believe you are either? I’m not trying to be critical–in fact, I think there are far too few voices from the “middle” on this issue! However, too many times I have heard agency people claim neutrality or impartiality when they were anything but.
Save bears, can you tell me any web sites that are extreme pro-wolf ones?
I’ve been trying to research this guy/group-? but have not been able to find much after a couple hours of looking. I think I know who this is but can’t be sure. (If it is who I think it is, they are a pretty serious nut-case whom I endeavor to avoid when they show up at an event that I happen to be attending.)
Interestingly this org’s head person wrote a barely coherent review of Niemeyer’s book on amazon. They seem to think that the book should have been a teary-eyed confessional and they weren’t happy about the honesty of the telling. I thought it was interesting how the org claims that they told Niemeyer about non-lethal management tools for a long time… they became an org (or so the claim states) way back in 2004 or something as though they were the only interested parties and that Niemeyer had no interest in the tools. I know for a fact that this claim is pure BS.
Anyway, just to offer up one extreme pro-wolf web site, IMO, merely for those who might be interested.
http://www.heartofthewolf.org
Salle, everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, but I don’t find Mike Wagner to be a nutcase. He’s just a passionate person about wolves. He is not a fan of Carter Niemeyer and he has his reasons.
And although I am sure there may be some, I have a hard time finding an “extreme” pro wolf website. I can name a few anti wolf websites off the top of my head and those are:
savewesternwildlife.org
lobowatch.com
huntwolves.com
saveelk.com
Granted you don’t feel this guy’s a nutcase and that you claim he “has his reasons” for not being a fan of Niemeyer’s. To that I respond, I have my reasons for deeming him to be a nutcase, not just for the review on a book. It’s his claims that he/his “group” have been at the forefront of wolf management activity, including supposedly “advising” Mr. Niemeyer on his job requirements and protocol.
I’ve noticed that there aren’t many supporters of this “group”.
Whatever his reasons might be, most of his ranting doesn’t seem to be on the up and up. It sounds more like self-absorbed inflation of value, not based on much that implies connection to reality. He also has claimed that Ralph is a wolf-murderer… I don’t think Ralph has ever killed a wolf or advocated the killing of wolves, so where did that claim come from? (Most likely the origins of his claims come from not actually reading anything about his impassioned topic that might go beyond what he wants to see and hear.)
Passion does not imply actual knowledge, it implies lack of emotional self control.
The Heart of the Wolf site has some anti-hunting rhetoric on it and some emotionally-charged writing but it is nothing to the extreme of the anti-wolf sites. It’s not claiming an eradication of a way of life, showing graphic pictures, or using extremely hyperbolic claims.
I would never defend Bridges, but you know over the last couple of years, I have seen comments on this very blog, that would come under the “incitement” laws for actions against anti-wolf people and hunters…
I know.
Save Bears,
If you see them, please let me know. I don’t want any of that.
++I know I sure as hell would not trip over hill and dale to kill anything right now, its to cold, to much snow and to damn much work!++
SB, I’ve got well over a foot of snow in my yard and it was 20 below zero when I got up this morning, although it has now warmed up to a balmy, minus 4.
You and I (or most sane individuals) would certainly not want to be out in this kind of weather but I’m not in the business of raising cattle nor do I hunt. Two lifestyles directly affected by wolves, whether here in Montana, Idaho or Wyoming.
I can recall a hot headed rancher’s kid, a few winters back, who thought nothing of running down, and over, a coyote on his snowmobile and then bragged about it when he came in to “refuel” at the local bar.
Not a big deal for “hot heads” to haul in a trailer full of snowmobiles to a location that has a local snowmobile club, grooming trails for a 100 miles or so, in a couple of different directions……. Especially if they have “damage control” in mind and are well “fueled”
“Not a big deal for “hot heads” to haul in a trailer full of snowmobiles to a location that has a local snowmobile club, grooming trails for a 100 miles or so, in a couple of different directions……. Especially if they have “damage control” in mind and are well “fueled”…”
Many of them certainly have it in for the trees too. Ever been out in snowmobile territory during the height of the season? There are so many trees mown down that it’s horrible. I do get a little feeling inside when a snowmobiler slams into a tree and is either harmed or killed… I think that the trees got some revenge, though it’s not really true. (I ran a trail groomer one winter and was infuriated by all the broken trees that I found every night.)
I don’t see any reason why they do this but I guess it satisfies some need to destroy things that they won’t get into trouble for, nobody does anything about most of the destruction brought about by people on these machines, unless they happen to venture into YNP unsupervised. Maybe it’s a compensatory act that evens out their sense of having no tangible power in their daily lives… Maybe that’s part of these anti-wolf people, disenfranchisement for nearly everything means that they have to take it out on someone/something so they go after a target that is out of sight and crimes of that sort are hard to investigate so they reason that they can or can have the ability to get away with it.
As for the blog-bound instigators of illegal and/or immoral actions, a time will come when they regret what they’ve done whether the law catches up to them or not. Usually the cruelest figure it out when they are near to death, which is probably way too late… for them at least.
Where I live there is a lot of snowmobile activity but even locals who ride these things shake their heads at many of the tourists and recite the general claim that most of us have come to find truthful; Once they get the helmet on, it seems to suck out all of their brains and they go out and do the stupidest things…” One of the reasons they are referred to as “bubbleheads”.
The one thing that can be counted on with Toby Bridges, et. all.
They will never let facts get in the way any little red riding hood story of the day that they come up with.
I find it odd that some of these big mouth extremists don’t even come from Montana or Idaho or even Wyoming.
Bob Fanning comes from Chicago I believe and Toby comes from Missouri and Rockholm comes from Washington.
jon Says:
January 1, 2011 at 3:54 PM
Salle, everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions, but I don’t find Mike Wagner to be a nutcase. He’s just a passionate person about wolves. He is not a fan of Carter Niemeyer and he has his reasons.
Jon – it takes almost nothing to get a website up and running. Its “akin” to the bible belt in the south, years past, tents thrown up in communites with strong religious beliefs, throw in a talking head, a feverish belief, and if you “believed” and gave, gave, gave, those donations were gonna somehow make a difference
Can you see anywhere on that site where your donations will be put to good use and are making a difference?
It kind of reminds me of Ron Gillett.
By the way, I wonder what happened to all of that money Ron raised to fight wolves with over the years. To my knowledge that group was never a 501(c)3 non-profit. After he did his little tour of rants a couple of years ago I never heard a thing. After I took the video we posted on this site I heard that he made a veiled threat about me and told people that there would be a few pro-wolf activists at the bottom of Payette Lake.
You should have pressed charges against him for making threats ken. Did you?
I think Gillette is the kind who will threaten you unless you greet him with cash or a loud derogatory claim about wolves… or both.
He physically attacked Lynne Stone and nothing happened except she had a lot of legal bills after the local judge let the slob slide. He injured her hand and tried to take her camera out of her hand during the attack, all the while verbally threatening her. What good would it do if Ken complained?
I’ve had him threaten me too, a couple years before wolves hit the ground in Idaho. I won the argument he started. It happened in front of 22 members of my clientele, they gave me a standing ovation and a pretty large tip. He has no social skills and relies on his brute force and ignorance to get by. He’s pretty marginalized these days but is still a pain whenever he rears his ugly head.
this Heart of the wolf guy is different. At keast he advocates for knowledge but is unfortunately totally unwilling to look at the reality of wolves on the landscape while ranching interests have purchased their so called legitimacy with the legislature(s).
I have spent the last couple hours browsing all the links on the web site and find some interesting info that I agree with but I don’t care for his calling the people who are most interested in retaining wolves on the landscape murderers. Some wolves will be killed in “management” actions, I don’t agree with any wolf killing for the purpose of making life easy for ranchers at my expense. I call Carter or whomever is the main person in charge and ask them about it. I usually get a reasonable explanation whether I like it or not, there is not much I could do beyond voicing my opposition and then research a way to change things through appropriate legal pathways.
I still think this guy loses a lot of credibility by blasting names of folks he knows little to nothing about all over the internet as labeling them as murderers…. I’ve seen his “murderers” posts in the past and find that they are irresponsible vitriol at best. But I’m sure he’s at least ten cents smarter than Ron Gillette, but ten cents isn’t much.
“Just so you know our mailbox is a good distance away from us,
so usually it is checked every so often. Email thus is faster, but
we will get back to letters sent to our mailbox
Keep in mind we only take donations from those who truly
support Wolves. Not sell-out ‘conservation’ groups or hunters.
Those will be discarded. So only serious donations please.”
How would they know?
They appear to be based in Colorado.
++Keep in mind we only take donations from those who truly
support Wolves. Not sell-out ‘conservation’ groups or hunters.
Those will be discarded. So only serious donations please.”
I agree, how would they know? When I can afford to make a “serious” donation, its to a site (organization) that makes their concerns known, list their efforts at positive change and document their victories (WWP comes to mind!)
I just spent 45 minutes with a Montana FWP official regarding why Toby Bridges has not been charged under the Montana “Criminal Incitement” law.
Although the officer agreed that Bridges statements fit the law, as far as violating it, he said that Montana FWP, with the exception of “Disorderly Conduct,” can only enforce the 87 codes which concern fish and game issues. He stated that the Criminal Incitement law, which is a 45 code, is out of their authority and they can’t enforce it.
He told me that it would probably take a county attorney to file charges, in whichever county Bridges resides, but that considering the hot political topic wolves have become, that no county attorney would likely touch it. He felt the major challenge, in spite of what the law reads, would be the “free speech” defense.
He did feel that if people are following Bridges advocacy of criminal action, that eventually one will slip up, with the result being criminal charges, which could lead to Bridges.
To sum it up, it appears that nothing will be done under “criminal incitement” laws towards Lobowatch and Bridges. However, putting out poisoned bait is illegal in Montana, and can be enforced by FWP, if they can apprehend a person doing it.
Simply put, they don’t have the man power to investigate and charge this type of situation…and the Fed’s don’t have the resources to do it.
The key is, you have to find the animal, then you have to test the animal, then you have to follow a cold trail on who may have poisoned the animal..
Bridges is a very calculating person, and in reality, poisoning cases even in humans are some of the hardest to investigate or prosecute…
Save bears,
I agree with you. Most crimes are never solved, and catching someone out in the woods with poison is extremely unlikely, especially with the few wardens that we have.
Probably, for someone to get caught, it will take a big mouth and then someone to turn them in to law enforcement.
The warden I spoke with said he believed Bridges talks a lot, then hopes someone else will do the actual dirty work.
Mike,
The warden’s comment is spot on. Whenever anybody talks about poisoning, one must be concerned about someone else taking it to heart.
Mike, did the warden say anything about illegal wolf kills? I know there were 2 wolves illegally killed. I wonder if there has been any more that we don’t know about.
It only takes one impartial eye witeness.
PW,
Yes it does…..good luck in finding an impartial witness in the NRM, they are going to either be biases pro or anti, and both sides do themselves no favors..
Interesting. In Wyoming, certified “Peace Officers” who carry guns and badges are often deputized into other agencies, and all have the power of arrest and/or hold , be they Game Warden or Sheriff Deputy or town cop. Mutual aid agreements are in place. All are enabled to refer instances to the appropriate prosecutor, even outside their ” jurisdiction”, and pf course other agencies.
Game Wardens in Wyoming have only had peace officer authority, guns and badges, since 1975. That move was mightily resisted by certain segments of the public , if I recall.
MTFWP has a curious and apparently narrow distinction, although it appears some(?) wardens have broader enforcement authority including Title 45:
http://fwp.mt.gov/enforcement/wardens/
I believe a number of states bestow the same authority (general authority) as a state patrol officer to most/all wardens. I am pretty sure that is the case for OR and WA. Officers of the Columbia River Inter Tribal Fisheries Commission are deputized Oregon staters, as well.
The Fish, Wildlife and Parks does not want the liability if the wardens start enforcing other laws than fish and game statutes. In the early 1970’s a warden was killed while involved with a domestic dispute. There was recent talk about allowing them to arrest drunken drivers.
I know that in Utah, the Division of Wildlife engages in regular law enforcement, at least those with law enforcement training such as the C.O.’s.
They are an important adjunct to the town police and sheriff in rural areas.
In Oregon the State Troopers enforce wildlife laws.
jon,
Not specifically. He said FWP gets a lot of material anonymously from people showing hides from wolves they claim to have killed through “western justice,” with the shooter wearing a ski mask or something similar in the picture. But, there is no way to verify these photos as genuine poaching cases, or where and when they were taken. Or how old the hides are.
http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/112686879.html?page=1&c=y
Came across this add from the International Wolf Center Facebook page, not sure if this is the right place to put it on this blog. I am interested in what people think of this?
Thanks!
The poisoning of an animal, any animal, is a cruel, inhumane, barbaric act of a complete coward! This is illegal and certainly immoral, without honor or decency. Other hunters really ought to come down on Toby Bridges, rabid, maniacal Toby is ruining the reputation of all ‘sportsmen’; trust me on that!
Let’s all call toll free 1-800-TIP-MONT – Toby Bridges lives in Montana – this is the toll-free line to report wildlife abuse – I think posion and his other rantings about making wolves suffer – should be reported and this dangerous terrorist against wildlife should definitely have his hunting license revoked permanently!
This is an outrage! Poisening is a very cruel and inhumane. He should be punished to the max for this.