Park bison killed by small arms fire-
It is redundant to call this sad and dangerous. Small arms are used not primarily to cause suffering, but to avoid a loud report from the gun attracting attention. Rural neighbors who are out to settle scores kill each others livestock this way.
Montana probes killing of Yellowstone buffalo. Laura Zuckerman. Reuters US Online Report Domestic News
Addition. Here is the story in the Island Park, Idaho newspaper. Bison haters attack roam-free policy.
4/23. More. Story makes it the U. K. Hunt for the Yellowstone bison serial killer after beasts shot in protected national park. The Daily Mail.
Comments
I ain’t spending a money in Gardiner this year, either.
$crew that town and that state.
Nothing decent to eat in that community anyway.
The article does not say what caliber the small bore bullets were, or whether they might have been from multiple weapons. However, unless they passed completely through the animals (unlikely) there will likely be bullets with rifling patterns against guns which shot these animals might be matched, if one can locate them.
There may be a low probablity of catching the jerks who did this, but you never know. Sometimes stupid people do multipl stupid things, the next one dumber than the previous one.
One can only hope. I have not tolerance for this crap. If I found somebody doing this stuff, I might have legal problems of my own after I got through with them.
WM….. Something else we agree on.
There is only one thing to do to people like this, turn about it fair play, knee capping with a .22 has always been pretty effective, when I was serving, there was a group of terrorist that were in Panama, and their favorite way to punish those who opposed them was to kneecap them and leave them lay. Fortunately by time it was all said and done, we eradicated them.
Heard the Mafia, back in the days, also employed those tactics SB. Bullets, baseball bat to the knees – both extremely efficient when making a point.
My late boss Bobby LaManna, a bar owner in NY and Fort Collins, CO, told me once, you really don’t need any weapons – knees can only take 5 lbs of direct force – they just aren’t designed for a direct hit.
When I was active in the Military teaching combat tactics to my men, if you were in a hand to hand situation, you never hit them in the head, normally it just pisses your enemy off, the quickest way to make them subject to your control is a good kick with the arch of your foot across the area right below the knee cap, it will put the biggest strongest man down instantly…then you negotiate..
Save Bears, I would not want to get in a pissing match with you. You fight dirty. Have a good weekend.
Elk,
In all honesty, I hate to fight, I am really more of a pacifist.. but I will be damned if I have to fight, I am going to win, period!
You have a good weekend as well, been out turkey hunting?
But in all honestly, most of the time I will walk away from a confrontation…fighting hurts to damn much..
No, I have not. I have an excellent place on the Yellowstone River where the Big Horn runs into the Yellowstone, it’s the cost of gas. Some friends went to the Ashland and spent over $600 on gas for one turkey. Turkey hunting certainly is not carbon neutral.
This is the last weekend and there is some deep power in Big Sky that needs turns craved into it.
We have allot of turkeys running around and close to home this year, but the problem is, we also have a lot of new people who are moving into areas and putting them off limits to hunting, perhaps next year, after those birds roost on their poaches for a while!
Wow these people are crazy.
Seems to be a pattern out west. If you don’t like the judges decision or the law on the books just take out the weapon and shoot. After all the gut shooting rhetoric and childish behavior I think these yahoos really think it still is the wild wild west
.22-caliber, 40 shots at least into one bunch of bull bison near some residences – 2 died, at least two more shot and missing. MT FW&P has suspect but has to convince the county prosecutor to press charges against them. This is the same county with County Commissioners are pressing the same prosecutor to sue over the bison roaming plan.
What a mess!
Then they found another dead bison – suspicious but probably not related. MT FW&P is investigating.
See also:
http://www.buffalofieldcampaign.org/media/update1011/042111.html
I know I’ll fan flames, but so what… If the bison had guns, this never would have happened.
But they don’t Immer, and who could ever know whether they would chose to reason or talk it out, rather than shoot.
Nancy,
Believe it or not, this was not an attempt at humor but a comment on the pathogenesis of those who use guns as an excuse to mask the pathetic depths of their contempt for life.
Woe be it unto the grizzly sow who protects her young, or for that matter any animal that is striving to survive in the presence of these poor excuses of humanity.
So as I understand it, using a handgun on cattle in a National Forest will draw less atttention than using a rifle.
But if your caught, you will serve far more time..
You will do more time for killing a ranchers cattle in many western states than you will do for murdering a fellow human..
Well, I would have to disagree that small arms are used to avoid a loud report (noise). Small arms are man-portable weapons that are used against personnel, or lightly armored targets. Small arms can include crew-served weapons, such as belt-fed, medium machine guns. If you have ever shot belt-fed machine guns, or even an M-4 (5.56) I don’t think you would say they were quiet in the least bit. In fact, small arms are one of the big reasons I fail hearing tests every year (thanks Uncle Sam….lol…..and I use hearing pro). The only way to quiet down the noise from any type of small arms is to use suppressors.
I am ASSuming that the author meant to say that the bison were shot by a small caliber weapon. The word I have received from NPS and LE personnel is that the weapon used was a .22 caliber rifle. The shooter said the bison were chasing his dogs. I guess his dogs must be either fat, and/or dumb to not run away. It has also been reported that the shooter fired “a lot” of bullets, and shot at a lot of bison. It is not known how many he actually hit. A nearby neighbor reported that a lot of rounds impacted in his yard, and that rounds were fired with Hwy. 89 in the background. If nothing else, I cannot see how this guy couldn’t be charged with reckless endangerment for not having a safe backdrop. If you have ever seen his yard, he basically has no where he can shoot that provides a safe backdrop.
I agree, small arms and small caliber in this sense have a completely different meaning..I have shot a lot of small arms that will make your ears ring, in fact I still have ringing in my ears from small arms fire!
I dont get it. If you cant tolerate wildlife, why would you live at the entrance to YNP? Move to a concrete jungle where your competition is packing heat.
The more that is disclosed about this disgusting event, the bigger the question, why it would take a county prosecutor very long to complete an investigation and determine whether to go after this creep?
SB,
Good ole’ tinnitus. Yep, I have had it since around age 20 or so. Too many rounds fired, explosions set off, helos flown in, and jets jumped out of. I wouldn’t hear anything if I wasn’t good about wearing hearing protection.
MM….I agree. I ask myself this question everyday.
WM….it doesn’t seem like anyone around here (those in authority) know how to proceed. Everyone I talk to seems to think the bison are in some kind of limbo status. Are they wild animals, or not? Who deals with them….FWP, F.S, NPS? Can they be shot if a “threat” on private property or not? If a naturally deceased one is found, can the head be taken like people do with a winterkill elk/deer? I am not asking these questions, just saying these are all the types of questions people have asked, and nobody seems to be able to provide answers.
Besides which even if there wasn’t confusion as to the bison status, any investigation takes time. If you were accused of something, wouldn’t you rather have the investigation take a little longer so as to insure it is fair? Wouldn’t you rather have it take longer so it doesn’t get thrown out on a technicality? I would. The shooter isn’t going anywhere.
RLTW
It s a shame that some hunters and ranchers take actions into their own hands when they do not get their ways. First, it was some individuals with wolves and coyotes, and now (possibly) ranchers with bison. The saying “Wild West” sure goes hand in hand with actions like these. One thing that struck me odd was “Rural neighbors who are out to settle scores kill each others livestock this way.” Now, I have been to Idaho twice, but have never heard of this. Can someone tell me how often this occurs?
Phil,
After over 20 years, this is the first time I have ever heard of a Bison incident like this, there have been a couple of pronghorn spree killings in the last 20 years, but nothing I have ever heard about Bison..
SB: In those 20 years, how often do you see rancher to rancher hostility? Are there a large amount of conflicts between ranchers?
Phil,
Not that I am aware of, at least I have never witnessed it and I know a hell of a lot of ranchers in Montana, from the Big Hole Valley to the Missouri Breaks, someone is creating a story that I don’t see..
Forty miles north of where that buffalo was shot is a world famous spring creek that runs through 2 one hundred old ranches. The two families have been feuding many, many years and the last I heard the feud was still going on. Yes, ranchers dislike (hate) their neighboring rancher. It is usually over an easement, water rights or some small minor incident that happen many years ago. The source of misunderstanding has long been forgotten, but the animosity has lingered for scores, with the new generation reliving a past that they have no connection to. It’s human nature at it worst and is not confined to ranchers.
Glad to read that it seems like they found the idiot. It’s sad though that they quickly found the bison killer (possibly), but have yet to find any of the wolf killers. Not an investigator, but I would think it would be extremely difficult to find someone who illegally kills wildlife?
Not really, many of them, just can’t keep their mouth shut, most poachers are caught because they run their mouths, it is the ones that don’t run their mouth that are the problem..and believe me they are out there..
The more expensive gas gets, the more these loons will be forced back into society where they can hopefully receive some sort of education.
Gas prices would have made no difference in this situation Mike, the guy lives in the area, and it sounds like he shot them on his private land, you and your fuel analogy, is full of just that, gas!
Also, I wonder how the new NPS gun laws played a role in this.
How would the gun laws have anything to do with this? This happened outside the park, and from my understanding was done by a resident of the area, so there is no correlation between the new NPS gun law, this particular situation had nothing to do with the park..
I cannot see where the law allowing people to carry weapons into national parks played any role whatsoever. The shooter (of the first incident anyways) shot the bison on his private property, outside of YNP.
For what it is worth, you could bring firearms into national parks before the new law anyways. They just had to be stored, and not in an operating mode. Some parks (such as Mt. Rainier) allowed you to bring weapons (and even dogs…on leash) through the park, as long as you were on the PCT.
Do we know this guy’s name? If so, publish it and publicly shame him out!! Look, the county prosecutor has to file charges on this person, otherwise, all the other bison-haters will feel like they have free-license to take pot-shots at bison anywhere outside the park, while endangering public safety as well. It’ll be the “Wild West” all over again. Needs to be nipped in the bud, immediately!
Well, I know his name, etc. Not like he tried to hide it. Heck, everyone that drives Hwy. 89 could see what happened in his yard.
However, as much I may disagree with what he did, I will not release any of his personal info (for professional reasons). Let’s see if he is accused of a crime first. After talking to some of those in the know, they are not sure if what he did was illegal yet. That being said, if they do decide not to prosecute for the shot bison, I still can’t see how they can’t prosecute for his disregard of having safe backdrops. But, I am used to poor weapons handling skills, and nothing being done about it.
Let’s see – in Montana, bison are treated as livestock, not wildlife like they should be and in Montana like most Western States, you have to fence out livestock as that is your responsibility.
In fact, if I shot a domestic bull on my private property because it was threatening my dogs, house, or relatives and it did not belong to me and I did not bother fencing it out, I think I would have to pay the domestic livestock owner money for his cattle, even though they were trespassing.
So… how come this guy can shoot the Nation’s bison with a .22 long rifle, which he did not bother to fence out?
Seems like a double standard – if they want to treat them like wildlife instead of livestock, then it would be no different if an elk or mule deer jumped my fences and started eating my shrubbery – part of the cost of living in the Great American West.
I could no less shoot the marauding deer or elk on my private property unless it was a proper hunting season and I had a permit or license.
Now… what about wanton waste of wildlife? seems like he shot at a bunch of bull bison and left them to rot instead of calling MT FW&P, MT Dept of Lands, USDA-APHIS, or someone representing the Interagency Bison Team.
Seems like just pure meaness and frustration turning to lawbreaker to me.
Of course, the local district attorney obviously has the appearance of a huge conflict of interest since some, like the Buffalo Field Campaign, want the offender(s – there are two different incidents, probably two perps) charged and brought to justice while the same county prosecutor’s bosses, the County Commissioners, want him to bring suit against the NPS and the State of Montana for agreeing to let Park bison roam in the Gardiner Basin.
I think Gov Schweitzer needs to step in and have the State Attorney General bring charges in State Court. Wonder if it is a Federal crime, since the bison originated in our Yellowstone National Park? probably a stretch, since other wildlife from the Park that wander into Montana are treated as Montana’s natural resources or “property”.
Larry- i agree with all your points. What a racket! When I first started following the politics of the western states I couldn’t understand why bison were treated like livestock. This fool that shot the bison will claim that they attacked him or the old standby “I felt my life was threatened”. It’s really a shame the way these people treat wildlife
Lest we forget this important point… if they don’t want the possibility of wildlife wandering into their yards, these folks could go live just about anywhere else on the planet and not have this problem. If they are frustrated because they didn’t get their way, which seems to be a position based on a total disregard or respect for wildlife, they should take their own advice that they willingly offer to wildlife advocates to just “suck it up”. So it makes me wonder where the “toughness” of these “westerners” went… I mean, there’s this concept that these are hardy folks and they can handle the harshness of the environment they choose to live in… so when did some generally docile ~ compared to grizzly bears for example, that wildlife finds its way into their yard, a threat to their lives? I can’t even consider buying this argument at all.
The person(s) with the gun(s) should pay a hefty price for their inability to control their actions with regard to breaking the law… it works both ways. It’s childishness melded with ignorance by choice, an unacceptable combination for someone allowed to possess firearms.
With regard to the legal appearances of impropriety, all can say is: WELCOME TO MONTANA, ANOTHER WILDLIFE HATING STATE. Regardless of what “they” say.
Are you sure the shooter didn’t call anybody? From all of the “official” vehicles there after the incident (sheriff, DOL, etc.), it wasn’t like it was attempted to be hidden.
I know at least one of the bison was butchered, and the meat was going to a food shelter. Now, how many walked off and died elsewhere and weren’t able to have the meat used, I don’t know.
As to the wanton waste…..well as has been stated before nobody knows what is legal (including law enforcement). The new bison management plan says you can shoot the bison if they are a threat. However, does that mean you can keep the meat afterwords? Probably not, otherwise lot’s of folks would be “threatened” so they can get a lot of meat.
And to the docile creatures comment. Well, I am all for the bison….however when comparing them to grizzlies I think you may find it interesting that in YNP bison cause more injuries, and are involved in more attacks on humans than any other creature in the park. So, to say they are not a threat is not accurate. Granted, most of the injuries/attacks are to people that don’t seem to have any common sense, and in my opinion deserved it…..but not always. They are wild animals (according to some of us), therefore they can always be a threat, especially when they are as big as these guys are.
As I have said before, the shooter said the bison were chasing his dog(s) on his property. I know at least part of his property is fenced in. I have not looked to see if it is all fenced in…..although it seems like everyone around there has their places fully fenced.
++As I have said before, the shooter said the bison were chasing his dog(s) on his property. I know at least part of his property is fenced in. I have not looked to see if it is all fenced in…..although it seems like everyone around there has their places fully fenced.++
Regardless, why did that person use a 22 long rifle, they could have gotten their elk gun out. They is no excuse to shot an animal multiple times with a small caliper rifle.
There are undoubtedly several possible scenarios that could prompt a homeowner to act with lethal force. However, a .22 long rifle cartridge is clearly not the tool to use on a nearly 2,000 pound animal, regardless of what it is doing. If, in fact, 40 shots were fired, that would require reloading …… several times, facts that should not be ignored.
As for the complexity of the law (just thinking outloud here), most states usually have enough umbrella type statutes that can cover these kinds of scenarios, whether they are game regulations or general criminal/misdemeanor code provisions. Unless these bison are otherwise classified under the interagency management plan, one would likely presume they are not in federal ownership once they leave the Park. Rather, they would be state property of some sort. Query whether they are classified as livestock or big game (I understand they the legal harvest applications are handled by MFWP so it seems they are “game” for some purposes), would they be covered under some game poaching provision, absent a safety “threat” (which would be a defense to a violation).
One could suppose one or more bison could/would chase dogs, but it seems more likely the reverse, and dogs being more nimble than most bison, rarely a threat in most situations.
Fencing sufficient to keep out bison is problematic as they are powerful animals, but is there a compensation provision in the interagency plan, if bison trash your fence (in some states there are funds that cover this kind of thing)?
As I have already stated my position on this situation, I won’t again, but WM you don’t have to reload several times to shoot a .22, my ruger 10/22 can be equipped with two 25 round banana magazines affixed together as we did in the military, empty the first 25, push the magazine and insert the new magazine. With this set up, I can expend 50 rounds in less that 45 seconds…
SB,
Yeah, I am aware of the high capacity 10/22 Ruger mags. Probably not unreasonable to conclude owners of stuff like that have other weapons at their disposal, or the sense/knowledge that a .22 is not the right thing to use.
WM,
What is the right caliber to use, really has no meaning in the state of Montana, there is no rule or regulation stipulating what gun is appropriate for the job, one of the things I have written many letters in the past about to FWP to institute minimum caliber classifications for hunting, in this instance it was not hunting, it was simply a dope that knew there were no regulations in place to prevent him from shooting a perceived threat(albeit very questionable) Private land, claimed threat, grab what you got and tell the authorities some stupid story about your dogs. I am betting he won’t even get much of a slap on the wrist..
This is one of the reasons, Bison need to be re-classified and put under the authority of FWP and not DOL!
Shooting wildlife, in this case bison, is NOT an isolated incident. Happens quite often and anyone who spends a lot of time in the woods comes across numerous deer carcasses, especially after hunting season, that have suffered from either a small caliber, underpowered weapon or an arrow compliments of the “stick’em and find’em” crowd. There was an incident in the Miller Creek area south of Missoula last year where over a dozen deer were shot with a .22 in one night…….many, just don’t value wildlife and please don’t tell me the ones that are involved are the dreaded “out-of staters”. In fact, the out of staters that I know are appalled by the way Montanans treat fish, wildlife and the environment.
I have never lost an animal that I have shot with my bow, unfortunately there are many lazy hunters out there that have not figured out an animal will not drop instantly from a bow shot, also those dopes immediately start chasing after their bow shot animal, not knowing that is the wrong thing to do. When you bow shoot an animal it is prudent to give it a bit of time before you start tracking, let the animal lay down and die, instead of pushing it.
Personally, I think mandatory bow hunting education classes should be a prerequisite. It’s a requirement in Idaho, but not in Oregon.
Bow hunting safety class is a requirement in the state of Montana as is hunters safety class, Also in Washington, Oregon has been trying implement the requirement of for several years now.
SB…….I totally support a “minimum caliber” for big game. Curious what was the response you received from MFWP ?
Just to add, even though not required in OR, last statistics I read showed that over 90% of bow hunters voluntarily take bow hunter education classes before going bow hunting..
Jerry,
Many in the agency support a minimum caliber requirement, unfortunately the ones up the ladder have pretty much sluffed it off as another rule that people will resist, hence no real action on the issue for many years now. They are under the impression that people will make the right choice as to caliber for each species. In my experience often times this is not the case.
I find it very hard to believe that 9 out of every 10 bow hunters voluntarily take bow hunter safety courses. I’ll have to use ole’ google to check on that one!
Maybe, maybe not, I was given those statistics by the chief enforcement officer in OR a few years ago, in the state of OR the state patrol is in charge of game law enforcement, if you find something let me know, I have not stepped foot in the state of OR for quite a few years now, other than to drive down I-84 so as I have said before, I really don’t pay all that much attention to what goes on there..
Here is a link to the list of states and notes on if they do or do not require bowhunters education:
http://www.ihea.com/hunter-education/bowhunter-education-standards/state-bowhunter-education-requirements.php
Seems I was wrong, I thought Washington required the class, but based on this list they don’t…
The ones who voluntarily take the classes are showing (in my opinion) responsibility in hunting. If it was forced on them, than that is different, but to take time out of your day(s) to take classes shows that you want to become a responsible candidate in your actions, and to a degree shows respect for the wildlife.
I would like to see bow hunter education be mandatory in all states that have bow hunting. I will never understand why education is resisted by so many. Bow hunting has got easier over the years due to equipment advancements, but it still takes quite a bit of skill to become a proficient bow hunter.
I used to shoot in archery tournaments, and believe me, even with the innovations in equipment, you will not win a tournament without the skills required..
Jerry
Sometime ago you referenced hunters using small calipers. Where are you getting your information, from the field, observation or a publication. I am finding the opposite. There are to many hunters using over powered guns that they are afraid of recoil and shooting very poorly. I am just interested in an opinion.
I have never seen anyone using a .223, 22-250 or 220 Swift hunting. I do feel that a 6mm/.243 is to small for elk, but thousands of elk have been kill with a .243 and thousands of elk have been wounded and lost with a .243.
The dirty secert of archery hunting is the number of elk wounded and lost. Archer’s refuse to discuss or answer any surveys on wounded animals. My nephew wounded and lost a 350 bull in the Breaks last fall and he has killed many elk with a bow. He quit hunting elk for the year.
Trust me, I do not agree with what the guy did at all. As I mentioned before, his dogs must be fat, and/or dumb if they can’t run or stay away from bison on a big, open field.
Besides, if he saw bison out in his yard, why did he let the dogs out? I check outside my place every time before I let my dogs out, so as to avoid any dog/wildlife conflicts. And if he can’t control his dogs from running after wild animals, then there are leashes.
Also, as I will keep harping on…..his yard’s range fan is not ideal for the safe discharge of any firearms.
No excuse for his weapon choice, but maybe it’s the only weapon he had? I don’t know the guy, but I have herd of him. I am guessing he may not be the type that has a larger caliber weapon. That is not verified though…..just a thought.
They have 50 round magazines for the Ruger 10/22. The 10/22 probably has more accessories/modifications/etc. than any other weapon out there. And that is saying a lot compared to the current M-4 carbine SOPMOD kit.
I am starting to believe, we will see very little done over this incident, Bison are not classified as wildlife in the state of Montana, despite the efforts of many to have it done. They are an animal with virtually no classification, hence in the black hole filled with gray mist. Also, I don’t believe they will charge him with reckless endangerment, as it is not against the law to discharge a firearm outside the city limits in Montana. I had a situation happen several years ago, that vividly showed me this, I was working on my vehicle in the front yard of my home, when all of a sudden I hear rifle shots and bullets hitting a tree just behind me! I ran in the house, called 911 and sheriff showed up. He told me, there was very little he could do, we did however find the persons shooting, and they were told they should look for a better backstop to target practice. That was it..
I’m not sure what the sheriff was thinking, but he could have charged the shooters with Negligent Endangerment, 45-5-208, under Montana Law… “A person who negligently engages in conduct that creates a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury to another commits the offense of negligent endangerment.” If the bullets hit the tree next to you, and they weren’t using a proper backstop, it was definitely a “substantial risk” to you, and lack of a backstop was negligent. I wold have cited them, and let them (the shooters) defend themselves in court.
Excuse my spelling, I meant, “would have cited them.”
You might have cited them, but unfortunately you can read all the law you want, but in the real world, things work a bit differently!
I hope the people who did this are caught and brought to justice, so I’m not going to hold my breath. If caught, there will be no justice, probably a slap on the wrist and a small fine.
Jon,
Unfortunately in Montana, there are no provisions for punishment in this particular situation.., don’t hold your breath at all, there is no law in place..
I would disagree with you. I do work in the “real world.” As a 21 year veteran, patrol-certified reserve deputy, I work in the local sheriff’s office. In fact, I’m going on the night shift five hours from now. To cite or not is left to the officer’s discretion, based on the evidence. But, often, cases are let go simply because the officer doesn’t want to push it. Your sheriff simply chose not to act…
Park County Sheriff’s do anything – you’ve got to be kidding. This is “good ole’ boys” country – shoot it, kill it, rape it, slaughter it, god, guns and guts made this country a nation of idiots! Thankful the bison were here long before we were and they will be here long after we are dust in the wind.
Prosecutor to “call” on bison shooter? What does this mean?
http://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/article_5c3d7fb4-b371-5341-bdd1-f4fb3cb3b0f9.html?mode=story